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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
 Posted - 29/12/2013 : 15:29:44
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Haha - I deleted that part of my comment , as I looked at it further, so what you are quoting Jackie is now missing. I also tried to shorten my overly long comments. Then I returned to find your response. But anyway, I'm glad you responded to the comment because your additions are valuable (per usual).
I don't think Cristian signed that marriage record though. The handwriting for "Cristian Tompson" is just as the handwriting on the form. Ditto for "Maude Olivia Adams Fast." Ditto for "John William Adams" and "Clara Agnes Johnson." Ditto "G Stanley Pite, Curate." (His signature is legible, not illegible.) If those five people all signed their own signature, the similarity in their handwriting would be highly unusual. The only difference is in the "F" in Fast. The F in the form varies from the F in Maud's "signature". But there is no room on the form, in the signature line, for the dropped line of the F as written in the form. The Maud Olivia -ast part of the signature is identical with what is written above on the form. To my eye.
I'm pumped about the Daniel too! You've been much more involved in this, so I can only imagine your excitement. 
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Edited by - JaneC on 29/12/2013 16:03:11 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2013 : 16:06:46
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quote:
Originally posted by jwiborg
On behalf of Derek Lawburary.
Wait a minute - this version, the big jpeg, which is what I read, looks different than that little jpeg.
Huh? |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2013 : 16:19:47
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OMG! We're both right!
The one posted by Jan is different than the certified one sent to Derek...So much for certification.... |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2013 : 16:21:21
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Wierd! LOL
I said it earlier - that poor Cristian seems to be the victim of a series of unfortunate misspellings and misrepresentations, including the memorial that includes him as "Christine."
When will the injustice end? It's kind of funny - but also poignant. |
Edited by - JaneC on 29/12/2013 16:29:15 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2013 : 17:53:04
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| The announcement on the certified copy promises dire consequences to those "falsifying" a document, yet here the authorities have provided not a true copy but a false copy.... |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2013 : 19:08:07
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Heads up to Derek - there are penalties for possessing a false certificate. Are we accessories to this crime? 
Turning back to Derek's important find of the name "Daniel" - I'm curious about the source of that.
Good to be reminded about the name of Cristian Tompson's oldest daughter - so Cristian gave his oldest son AND his oldest daughter the names of the parents of Kristian Elias!
Children of Cristian Tompson (or Tompson or Thompson):
Rose Malinda Joanne Tompson born 14 Oct 1903 (married Harry Miller)
Doris (Tishy) Tompson born 05 Oct 1905 (married Arthur Andrews) - indexed as Doris Mildred M. Tompson on Ancestry.com England & Wales birth index
Christine Tompson born 1907 (married John Venner) - found as Christine Mary F Tompson on Ancestry.com (Maude's mother was Mary Ann)
Marjorie Tompson born 21 Feb 1909 - indexed as Marjorie Mary Tompson on Ancestry.com
Daisy Tompson born 04 Dec 1910 married Derek's dad
Thomas Alfred Daniel Tompson born 03 Nov 1912 married Muriel Webb
Francis Robert Albert Tompson born 03 Sep 1914
SOURCE, below, with additions from Ancestry as noted. Cristian's name is here given as Cristain Thromme Tomsen.
http://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.franktompson.talktalk.net%2FTOMPSON-MATSON%2520FAMILY%2520TREE.doc
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Edited by - JaneC on 29/12/2013 20:05:17 |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2013 : 19:39:33
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The source comes from the death certificate of uncle Tom. His younger brother Frank (cousin Frank's dad) registered Thomas' death. Information sent to me from cousin Frank on the original death certificate. Hope this clears up that ambiguity Jane.
All getting exciting now..! |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2013 : 19:58:17
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Derek, how does it feel risking your own freedom (holding a falsified document) in search of your grandfather? We'll all (us and the world wide web, that is) will keep your secret and so now it's a conspiracy....
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2013 : 20:50:07
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Summary/Recap of previous information"
The Strømme Family from the family tree previously posted:
Daniel Johannes Danielsson Straume, 1854 - 1942 first married Johanne Gurine Ananiasdtr. Aamelfotsætra, 1854 - August 1900. (next married Synneva). Daniel and Johanne children (and by the way Johanne is pronounced as Yo-han-uh, similar to Joanna):
i. Daniel Andreas Danielsson Straume, f. 01.05.1878, d. 06.12.1898. No known children; died age 20.
ii. Ananias Johannes Danielsson Straume, f. 13.02.1880, emigrert til England. Has not been found.
iii. Kristian Elias Danielsson Straume, f. 02.11.1882, d. 1918, emigrert til Amerika.
iv. Peder Matias Danielsson Strømme, f. 1885. Han giftet seg med Petra Hellandshamn.
v. Gustav Danielsson Strømme, f. 1888. Gift 06.10.1914, med Bergljot Antonsdtr. Schei f. 15.07.1890 i Mosjøen, Nordland.
vi. Jenny Lovise Strømme f. 1890, d. 31.03.1915.
vii. Robert Johan Strømme, f. 09.07.1894. Han giftet seg med Ida Sefland, f. i Ålesund, Møre og Romsdal.
viii. Alfred Strømme, f. 13.11.1896.
ix. Dina Amanda Straume f. 23.11.1899. Gift 28.07.1918, med Peder Andersson Orvik, f. 1893.
The above repeats the information in the Volda book. Son of the woman who supplied the information to the author of the Volda book says Ananais and Kristian got flip-flopped; Ananais went to America, and Kristian died on a fishing boat in or near England in about 1920. All the other siblings have been found died and buried in Norway.
Y-DNA tests can establish a connection from a male along his direct paternal line. These tests have recently dropped dramatically in price. Obviously one can't seek such a test with a descendant of the father of every candidate for Cristian in Norway, but at some point, one could decide enough circumstantial evidence has been accumulated about one particular candidate, and test a connection with that candidate. Even if a volunteer with the requisite credentials (son of a son) from the Strømme side cannot be found immediately, it still might be worthwhile to establish what markers exist on the Tompson side (unless it is proved there are no male line descendants on the Strømme side). |
Edited by - JaneC on 29/12/2013 21:29:27 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2013 : 22:00:27
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Here is exactly what the 1971 Volda book says:
"2. Annanias Johannes, f. 1879, gift og budde i England.
3. Kristian Elias, f. 1882, reiste til Amerika, d. ved ei ulykke i 1918."
The more modern edition may have altered that...
Derek did the uncle who reported Cristian's name on his brother's death certificate speak with a "lithp", possibly transforming an S on Stromm to a Th on Thromm?
Since we have no record, yet, reflecting an exact dob for Cristian Tompson in England what we do have are various ages at exact dates in years.
Kristian Strommen* sailor, age 18 on 31 March 1901
*Proposed Cristian Tompson
Cristian Tompson bachelor age 20 on 19 July 1903
Cristian Tompson head of household age 28 in April 1911
Cristian Tompson engineer age 37 on or about January 1920
Check me if I'm wrong, but in each of these specific times would not someone born on 2 Nov 1882 have those ages at those dates? |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2013 : 22:48:49
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jkmarler - I don't understand this question: "Derek did the uncle who reported Cristian's name on his brother's death certificate speak with a "lithp", possibly transforming an S on Stromm to a Th on Thromm?"
Did Derek tell us how Cristian's name was reported on Thomas's death certificate? I didn't see that. Always good to have the full report of information in a record we've not seen (a report that includes telling the source).
I myself have wondered if Cristian had a lisp, and thus Stromm became Thromme, as spoken. On the other hand, Norwegian surnames underwent such unbelieveable transformations
when Norwegians immigrated to other countries, that in many cases no explanation other than "Who knows?" can be given. But yes, one wonders if the family stories include a lisp.
Yes, you're right on the age Jackie. Let's work it out:
Age 0 in November 1882, turned age 1 in November 1883, 2 in 84, 3 in 85, 4 in 86, 5 in 87, 6 in 88, 7 in 89, 8 in 1890, 9 in 91, 10 in 92, 11 in 93, 12 in 94, 13 in 95, 14 in 96, 15 in 97, 16 in 98, 17 in 99, 18 in 1900.
Yup, turned 18 in November 1900 and should still be 18 in March 1901. Same logic for all the dates, as they are all before November in the calendar year.
Good point! Add that to the growing pile of circumstantial evidence.
The Andrew I looked at died too late, I didn't keep a note of when. Here's the Andrew mentioned in the obituary you posted, mother's name was Ingeborg.
http://www.digitalarchives.wa.gov/Record/View/7A335C1CD3F7EB07347CF28B5F713AA2
Back in an edit: Here's an example of a candidate who is ambiguous to me, that is, I haven't got the full story.
http://www.digitalarchives.wa.gov/Record/View/AD995CECB4CF3B0AF4B1E88F2B33C765
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Edited by - JaneC on 29/12/2013 23:58:41 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2013 : 23:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
jkmarler - I don't understand this question: "Derek did the uncle who reported Cristian's name on his brother's death certificate speak with a "lithp", possibly transforming an S on Stromm to a Th on Thromm?"
Did Derek tell us how Cristian's name was reported on Thomas's death certificate? I didn't see that. Always good to have the full report of information in a record we've not seen (a report that includes telling the source).
I myself have wondered if Cristian had a lisp, and thus Stromm became Thromme, as spoken. On the other hand, Norwegian surnames underwent such unbelieveable transformations
when Norwegians immigrated to other countries, that in many cases no explanation other than "Who knows?" can be given. But yes, one wonders if the family stories include a lisp.
Excuse my bad. I remembered this as coming from Derek but it was in Jane's post about family tree info:
Cristain Thromme Tomsen
Yes perhaps Kristian had a lisp and therefore the whole family knew the name as Thromme or a variant of rather than Stromme. And most lispers would avoid those letters that cause them problems if they had a choice wouldn't they? Perhaps an explanation for the transformation from Trom to Tompson (but on the other hand Tompson does have an s in it so maybe not).... Of course, we'll likely never know for certain since all the people on earth who would have heard Cristian Tompson speak are long gone.--unless there's a school record someplace....
Additionally, Kristian Elias had a grandmother (father's mother, farmor) named Kristiann or Kristine who died in 1923.
Well, every evidentiary bit about Cristian Tompson is highly circumstantial so we'll have to give the Ph.d treatment --Pile it Higher and Deeper until the world bends under the weight... |
Edited by - jkmarler on 29/12/2013 23:35:02 |
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David Yaw
Medium member
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2013 : 23:22:30
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quote:
Originally posted by jkmarler
Derek, how does it feel risking your own freedom (holding a falsified document) in search of your grandfather? We'll all (us and the world wide web, that is) will keep your secret and so now it's a conspiracy....
I don't think Derek need worry that his former colleagues from Her Majesty's Constabulary will be knocking on his door just yet.
I think there is a simple explanation for the apparent discrepancy in the two record documents.
If we take a closer look at the marriage record first posted, we can see it covers four marriages. Comparing the individual records, its pretty clear that the handwriting on three of them is from the same person - and that the bride and groom ,the witnesses and the Curate officiating have each signed their own names, probably in the parish/church register. Its a facsimile of this record which the commercial websites have documented and placed on line.
The "certified copy" posted subsequently, which I guess Derek obtained from the Government Records Office GRO in Southport, has just one handwriting, and no obvious signatures. The word "copy" here is perhaps a little mis-leading - I'm pretty sure this is in effect a "transcript" of a record form with details of the date, married couple, witnesses and officiating minister sent by the parish to the GRO. Records I have from GRO for my own family members from the early 1900's are also in a consistent handwriting. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 30/12/2013 : 00:12:02
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quote:
Originally posted by David Yaw
quote:
Originally posted by jkmarler
Derek, how does it feel risking your own freedom (holding a falsified document) in search of your grandfather? We'll all (us and the world wide web, that is) will keep your secret and so now it's a conspiracy....
I don't think Derek need worry that his former colleagues from Her Majesty's Constabulary will be knocking on his door just yet.
I
David, of course, we (Jane and I) were being facetious. You are correct that often there are many copies of governmental records and Derek is probably safe from prosecution & persecution, even though the apparent letter of the law has been bent a little bit some time down the line by parties and for purposes untold....
We would not even be to this point without your find of an origin point named "Walden." Walden has "legs." For "Lauden Vordner", I await a moment of clarity for understanding.
In my experience with Norwegian-Americans, I find most who don't follow their own patronymic, will sometimes assume their father's patronymic, or take the name of a farm which they lived on, or was in their family ownership, or was the biggest farm in their parish. Mostly Norwegian-Americans when asked to specify their point of origin more specifically than Norway will sometimes give a regional name like Valdris, Hallingdal or Ringerike, sometimes the nearest biggest town like Oslo or Bergen or Trondheim but most commonly the name of the parish they came from.
And the differences between the 2 records underlines an extremely important lesson--get to the original record if at all possible. Don't settle for anyone else's interpretation of any record. The original speaks volumes.
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Christain Tromm
