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 Ole Gunderson from Asnes born in 1858
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
3324 Posts

Posted - 14/01/2013 :  03:53:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kåarto

The mother was Karen Mortensdatter.
Johannes b. Sept. 14. 1866 to Christian Henriksen Flisbroen at Gjesaasen and Karen Mortensdatter, see right page #143

This means that Karen Kristiansdatter, Ole Gundersen ´s halfsister, age 5 in the 1865 census died before 1870 and Ole Gundersen´s father died before 1860.

Kåre



Karen Kristiansdatter was dealt with earlier in this topic. Because of the discrepancies in the police emigrants list you think she may actually have been alive and came to US with her mother and father in 1870?

There are at least two possibilites & maybe many more--Perhaps Karen Kristiansdatter is daughter of Christian Hendrickson and an unknown woman a step-daughter to Karen Mortensdatter, no blood relationship to Ole Gunderson at all, who didn't die between 1865 and 1870 & who came to America later or was actually there just missed in the list

OR

Karen Mortensdatter died before 1870 and Christian Henrikson married a Karen Nielsdatter and moved with Ole and Ole's half-brother Johannes to US in 1870.
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bmcnallie
Junior member

USA
43 Posts

Posted - 14/01/2013 :  06:12:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jackie..Thanks for your reply. This is certainly a puzzle. This is what I know. I have a copy of pages 163-165 of the Asnesboka that lists the farm Flisstrand. It is in Norwegian but this is what I think...At the bottom of page 164 it lists Kristian Henriksen and wife Karen Martinusdatter (different spelling), stepson Ole, and Karen 1860. So Karen has to be a half-sister. Also, I have a copy of the ship record of the Nestorian of July 21, 1870 that the family was on and Karen is listed. I am just assuming that Karen was missed on the 1st leg of the trip. If you look at the “Hero” it lists Ole as age 4...so was the person writing down the information distracted and forgot to write down Karen?

Anyway, I believe she was alive and made it to America. Here they are in Arena, WI in 1870—after changing their name to Johnson. http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=Christian&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=johnson&msrpn__ftp=arena%2c+wi&cpxt=0&uidh=um6&cp=0&pcat=CEN_1870&h=14852058&db=1870usfedcen&indiv=1

Here is where I am not completely certain that these are the same, but I am 95% sure. Daughter Karen married an Ole Johnson at Our Savior's Lutheran Church in Eau Claire Wi on Nov 8, 1879. Also, I found a 1900 Census of the Ole E. Johnson family with a 93 year old Christ Johnson living with them.

All this leads me to believe they are all the same family. But I have never been able to trace the mother, Karen Mortensdatter or Nilsdater or whatever. Was it a different woman? I did find out a lot about the Johnson part of the family from Harold LaFluer and connected Ole to them but still so many questions.

Also, I thought that the 2nd child was a girl, Johanna.

Barb
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
3324 Posts

Posted - 14/01/2013 :  14:47:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"...I have a copy of pages 163-165 of the Asnesboka that lists the farm Flisstrand. It is in Norwegian but this is what I think...At the bottom of page 164 it lists Kristian Henriksen and wife Karen Martinusdatter (different spelling), stepson Ole, and Karen 1860. So Karen has to be a half-sister. ..."

Paucity of Vital Records
Because of the destruction of the basic vital records of the period in Åsnes (the parish registers), it cannot be determined who the parents of the children are with the usual immediacy, completeness and accuracy. You have to look at everything else for clues. The bygdebøk author has to examine the same records that you have.

Primary vs Secondary
Perhaps the Åsnesboka author has looked at the 1865 census in its original handwritten form and interpreted the name as "Martinusdatter." This published interpretation is a secondary record. Likewise, the online transcription at the Digitalarkivet of the 1865 in which her name is rendered as Mortensdatter is also a secondary record. I'd say get to a copy of the handwritten record of the census yourself and see what you see and if you agree with either.

Record Perspective
The author's basic perspective in most bygdebøker is to reflect the ownership of the various farms, and in others the names of the folks who lived & worked there and in some books the family groups of everyone.

In the 1865 census, the relationships given are usually geared to whomever the head of the household is, just as the US census schedules are.

So Karen Kristiansdatter is Kristian Henrikson's daughter. Her relationship to Karen Mortensdatter is not known with certainty. The bygdebøk author assumes that she is a child of Kristian and Karen M and she may or may not be. It is equally possible that she is a child of Kristian and some other now deceased mother / wife and that she is a step-sister / daughter to Ole & Karen.

"....Also, I have a copy of the ship record of the Nestorian of July 21, 1870 that the family was on and Karen is listed. I am just assuming that Karen was missed on the 1st leg of the trip. If you look at the “Hero” it lists Ole as age 4...so was the person writing down the information distracted and forgot to write down Karen?"

General levels of accuracy
In general, the parish registers of Norway are among the most accurate. But those records are lacking in this case.

Also in general, Norwegian records on Norwegian people in the police / emigrant lists are usually more accurate than the ship's lists recording the same people. But every rule can be broken.

There does seem to be a real breakdown of information in the case of Kristian Henrikson family (strange considering how correct the information on that same page is for Halvor and Pernille!).

As far as I've been able to determine there is no farm named "Flesbroen" in Åsnes, Karen's, the wife's, patronymic is rendered as Nielsd rather than Mortens/Martinusd, Ole is given an age of 4, no Karen the daughter, in sight.

At least the possibility of error in the transcription process could be eliminated by viewing the original hand-written lists.

You could do a manual search in the transcribed list to see if the daughter Karen was inadvertently attached to another family leaving on the Hero that day.


"Anyway, I believe she was alive and made it to America. Here they are in Arena, WI in 1870—after changing their name to Johnson. http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=Christian&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=johnson&msrpn__ftp=arena%2c+wi&cpxt=0&uidh=um6&cp=0&pcat=CEN_1870&h=14852058&db=1870usfedcen&indiv=1"

Ole Gunderson, Johannes Kristianson and Karen Kristiansdatter would have been confirmed in the US. Sometimes (not always) a complete set of parents, birth & baptism information is included in the confirmation record. Seek out the confirmations of these children and harvest what information there might be.

"Here is where I am not completely certain that these are the same, but I am 95% sure. Daughter Karen married an Ole Johnson at Our Savior's Lutheran Church in Eau Claire Wi on Nov 8, 1879. Also, I found a 1900 Census of the Ole E. Johnson family with a 93 year old Christ Johnson living with them.

All this leads me to believe they are all the same family. But I have never been able to trace the mother, Karen Mortensdatter or Nilsdater or whatever. Was it a different woman? I did find out a lot about the Johnson part of the family from Harold LaFluer and connected Ole to them but still so many questions."

Culture Giver
Largely, in American or European societies the culture you are given comes from your mother. If there is a disturbance in the relationship due to death or separation you might not collect the benefits of what Mom usually renders. That culture also includes oral history about your family.

A possible scenario for Karen Kristiansdatter is that her mother was indeed Karen Mortens/Martinusd but her mother died sometime between 1866 and 1870 and her father remarried to a woman named Karen Nielsd. Karen Nielsd was the woman who acted as mother, gave the culture and was remembered by her as mother. She told the pastor when she married her name and she told her children her name. So you have a mother of the blood and a mother of the function.

Since some of the missing records of Åsnes have been recreated (the baptism of Johannes) perhaps there might be other records reflecting information about marriages and deaths of the late 1860s.

It is rather curious that both Halvor & Pernille and Kristian and Karen opted to become Johnson a horrendously common name.
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bmcnallie
Junior member

USA
43 Posts

Posted - 15/01/2013 :  17:05:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I started on this about a year ago and was looking over my notes from last March. I had looked at church records from the South Beef River Church in Northfield (near Osseo) WI and had written down the names of Ole E. and Karen Kristiansdatter had a son Henry Gilbert Johnson baptized at this church Feb 24, 1884. So, these have to be the same people. I plan to go and look at these church records again soon. Maybe Karen Mortensdatter or Nilsen will be there now that I am more familiar with the names involved in this family.

Barb
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