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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2014 : 04:39:27
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Your posted link to the birth certificate worked!
Having seen the record it might be possible that Holer might relate more to the Foss than as a middle name. Since it might be more descriptive than just Foss is it might be found as a farm name in a particular parish incorporating both words as one name.
Now where did the Olsen turn up--which record?
The marriage record of Agnes to the Davidson, do you have an actual copy of it--if not, if it was only a transcription on a list online someplace, is it possible that something went cockeyed and an incorrect name was input for the groom?
Do you also have the birth records for each of the other children? There might be graduating iterations of his name in each... |
Edited by - jkmarler on 06/06/2014 04:46:13 |
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rickeyherb
Starting member
Australia
13 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2014 : 07:00:09
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The Olsen name only appears on his death certificate.
I don't have any more of the children's birth certificates but from the indices;
Jessie Jane - father Johanola
Jessie James death - father John
James William - father John
James William death - father John
Anna - father John
Amelia - father Johanna
James William (II) - father John
Elizabeth - father Johan
Agnes Ann - father John
There doesn't appear any progression in the changing of name.
I don't have a copy of the marriage record.
As per a researcher on RootsChat:
DAVIDSON William Edward 22 years Status not recorded Father Unrecorded
BOWLER Agnes Emma 17 years Status single Father Unrecorded
19 Jan 1852
At St John Church Adelaide Ade 9/219
I'm not sure of the source of this information.
On both Agnes and John's death certificates it is stated that they were married in Castlemaine Vic in 1856/57. I have searched extensively and can find no record of this marriage.
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Rickey Herbertson |
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rickeyherb
Starting member
Australia
13 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2014 : 14:32:43
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I will be away for the coming week. Any suggestions on how to proceed?
Regards
Rickey |
Rickey Herbertson |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2014 : 15:48:26
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quote:
Originally posted by rickeyherb
The Olsen name only appears on his death certificate.
I don't have any more of the children's birth certificates but from the indices;
Jessie Jane - father Johanola
One step closer; John had to names; Johanola which in Norwegian is Johan Ola.
A little enlightenment if you do not already know; Foss means Waterfall.
Kåre |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2014 : 15:32:31
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quote:
Originally posted by rickeyherb
1.
I don't have any more of the children's birth certificates but from the indices;
Jessie Jane - father Johanola
Jessie James death - father John
James William - father John
James William death - father John
Anna - father John
Amelia - father Johanna
James William (II) - father John
Elizabeth - father Johan
Agnes Ann - father John
2.
DAVIDSON William Edward 22 years Status not recorded Father Unrecorded
BOWLER Agnes Emma 17 years Status single Father Unrecorded
19 Jan 1852
At St John Church Adelaide Ade 9/219
I'm not sure of the source of this information.
On both Agnes and John's death certificates it is stated that they were married in Castlemaine Vic in 1856/57. I have searched extensively and can find no record of this marriage.
1.I'm unfamiliar with costs in Australia for such things but it might be worthwhile to get an actual copy of the birth records for each of the children in case there was some issue with the rendering of the name and that there might be some further designation of his birth place and birth date in Norway. There were only two boys named in the family each called James William.
It might be just a coincidence but one of the aspects of the traditional naming practices in Europe (and Norway) was to name the either the first child born in the 2nd marriage after the deceased spouse or the first child born in the 2nd marriage after the first same sex child born in the 2nd marriage as the sex of the deceased spouse.
Generally, when the traditional patterns are followed in Norway the first children are named after the grandparents, sometimes following a specific order --husband's parents first, wife's parents second or some other order combination. Following these practices are not universal nor are they required.
2. Regards the marriage, how many Agnes Emma Bowler are there in 1850s in Australia? Are they any censuses taken in Australia which might be helpful to establish the numbers & locations?
So it might be possible that Agnes was married twice (if the record does indeed show him as William Edward Davidson born some other place than Norway) Perhaps there'll be a death of a William Edward Davidson between 1852-1856 recorded some place.
As to the no find of the marriage record, if John Foss was a sailor, perhaps they were married by a sea captain rather than a minister or judge?
When I looked in the Trove, there were a number of mentions of John Foss'. One was a sailor who was killed falling off his boat, and several mentions of one involved in legal tussles. You might want to study them and see if any relate to your guy.
Did your John ever become a citizen in Australia?
Who was the informant on John's death certificate?
Does the cemetery where he and Agnes lay maintain records about the interments?
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2014 : 17:15:31
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Taking a few minutes to look for potential siblings for John Olsen Foss this morning.
The name Foss, it has been noted, means falls or waterfalls. Farms on which people live are often sources for surnames. Farms named exactly Foss (as opposed to foss as part of a larger name) in Norway in the 1865 Norwegian census number 181, in the 1801 census number 53. John Olsen Foss left Norway before the 1865 census and was born after the 1801 census. Perhaps his surname origin was from a farm associated with him or his family. Olsen is given as his patronymic. Ole is the most common, most popular male first name in Norway in the 1800s, so Olsen, with many possible variant spellings is the most common patronymic name used in Norway (for males, and with the usual female adaptation of datter etc. for female)
So from the 1865 census transcription online comes the following: Last name starting with "Ol", who live on a farm named exactly "Foss" with birthyear starting with 1825 +/- 10 years --1815-1835. So 48 people are found who are alive in 1865 who match the criteria. (There are none in Oslo, we don't expect to find farms within Oslo since it is the largest city in Norway then and now. )
Last name starting with etternavn: ol, ola, olafs, olafsd, olafsdatter, olafsdotter, olafsen, olafson, olafssen, olafsson, olafssøn, olafsøn, olafves, olaid, olaidr, olaiidatter, olais, olaisd, olaisdatter, olaisen, olaiss, olaissen, olaoss, olas, olasd, olaud, olauesdatter, olauesen, olaus, olausd, olausdatter, olausdotter, olausen, olauss, olaussd, olaussdatter, olaussen, olausson, olaussøn, olausøn, olaves, olavesd, olavesdatter, olavesen, olavess, olavessen, olavesson, olavessøn, olavs, olavsd, olavsdatter, olavsen, olavson, olavsson, olavusd, olavusdatter, olavusen, olavuss, olavussen, olays, olaysd, old, oldatte, olddatte, olde, olds, oldsd, oldsdatter, oldus, oldusd, olduss, ole, olead, oledatter, olefs, olefsd, oleifs, oleifsd, oleifsdatter, oleifssøn, olej, oles, olesd, olesdatter, olesen, oleses, oless, olessen, olessøn, olesøn, olevariusd, olivers, oliversd, oliversdatter, oliversen, ollersd, olles, ollesd, ollesen, olls, ollsd, ollsdatter, ollsen, ollufsd, ollufsen, olofs, olofsd, olofsdatter, olofsen, olofson, olofsøn, ols, olsd, olsdad, olsdallatter, olsdat, olsdater, olsdatr, olsdatter, olsdd, olsdotter, olsdr, olsdtr, olsdttr, olsen, olsend, olsendatter, olsenn, olsens, olses, olson, olss, olssd, olssdatter, olssdotter, olssen, olsson, olssøn, olsøn, oluffisdatter, oluffsen, olufs, olufsd, olufsdatter, olufsen, olufss, olufssen, olufsøn, olusd, olvars, olvarsd, olvaviuss, olves, olvesd, olvesen, olvorsd
Farm name exactly as foss gardsnavn: foss
Birthyears ranging from 1815-1835 fodeaar: 1815, 1816, 1817, 1818, 1819, 1820, 1821, 1822, 1823, 1824, 1826, 1827, 1828, 1829, 1830, 1831, 1832, 1833, 1834, 1835
Fylke Antall
Østfold 1
Akershus 7
Oslo 0
Hedmark 1
Oppland 0
Buskerud 6
Vestfold 3
Telemark 1
Aust-Agder 0
Vest-Agder 12
Rogaland 1
Hordaland 0
Sogn og Fjordane 3
Møre og Romsdal 0
Sør-Trøndelag 12
Nord-Trøndelag 1
Nordland 0
Troms 0
Finnmark 0
Totalt 48
Of these, the largest numbers in any given parish (parishes which are the subdivision which produced the available vital records to search in Norway) are Høland in Akershus, Søndre Undal in Vest Agder, and Støren in Sør Trøndelag. Below are the names of the individuals in each of the parishes
Høland, Akershus
Pers.no. Household Given name Last name Family pos. Occupation Marital status Age Sex Birth place Horses Cattle Sheep Rye Barley Oat Peas Potatoes
768
28 1 Svend Ols. Husmand g 42 m Høland 1 4 3 1 4 1/8 4
786
11 1 Johan Ols. Husmand, Skomager g 45 m Høland 1 3 3 1 3 3
787
13 Elen Marie Olsd. hans Kone g 42 k Høland
792
18 1 Svend Ols. Husmand g 46 m Høland 1 2 2 1/4 3/4 3 2
793
19 Anne Olsd. hans Kone g 38 k Fet
Søndre Undal, Vest Agder:
Pers.no. Household Given name Last name Family pos. Occupation Marital status Age Sex Birth place Horses Cattle Sheep Wheat Rye Barley Oat Potatoes
533
23 1 Ole Ols. Husfader Husmand med Jord g 43 m Søndre Undals Prgj. 2 1 1/8 1/8 1/2 2
534
24 Karen G. Olsd. hans Kone g 39 k Nordre Undals Prgj.
568
24 1 Tobias Ols. Gaardbruger, Selveier ug 31 m Søndre Undals Prgj. 1 4 5 1/4 3/8 1 1/2 3
570
26 Ingeborg Olsd. Tjenestepige ug 36 k Søndre Undals Prgj.
571
27 1 Ole Ols. Husfdr Gaardbrg Selveier g 40 m Søndre Undals Prgj. 1 5 5 1/4 1/4 1 1/2 4
Støren, Sør Trondelag:
Pers.no. Household Given name Last name Family pos. Occupation Marital status Age Sex Birth place Disease Horses Cattle Sheep Goat Pig Barley Mixed grain Oat Potatoes
2161
14 1 Iver Olss. Husfader Husmand med Jord g 32 m Størens Prgj. 2 6 1 1/2 2
2176
29 Siri Olsd. hans Kone g 47 k Størens Prgj.
2185
8 Marit Olsd. deres Datter ug 35 k Størens Prgj.
2233
27 1 Esten Olss. Husfader Gaardbruger og Selveier g 46 m Størens Prgj. 2 13 22 4 2 1 16 8
2241
3 Anders Olss. hans Broder Rokkemager ug 40 m Størens Prgj. d
2244
6 1 Peder Olss. Logerende Jernbanearbeider g 35 m Størens Prgj.
2245
7 Kjersti Olsd. hans Kone g 36 k Størens Prgj.
2255
17 1 Arnt Olss. Husfader Husmand med Jord g 45 m Størens Prgj. 2 4 1 1/4 4
6130
29 1 Ole Ols. Husfader Gaardb. og Selveier g 47 m Størens Prgj. 2 15 25 2 1 3/4 3 8
The reality is that the numbers may not mean anything. He may have only one sibling to be caught in the 1865 or none--it can't be known until you know. But you do need a place to start. You could search every parish in Oslo harvesting every John (Johan, Johannes, or even Hans) Olsen born in at least 1824-1826. And you'd have to collect all whether or not there is a Foss name associated with him at the time of his birth or not, because names evolve even in Norway. Big city, lots of parishes, lots of Johns, lots of Olsen so lots of mucking around.
2. You could collect a few more records in Australia to see if there is another iteration of his name, birthplace, or birthdate which might be more telling.
3. Study some of the nuances in the place names and people's names in Norway to see if something pops. For instance Kåre has looked at Johanola as if Johan is John's first name and Ola is his middle name. Earlier I opined that Holer might be more related to the Foss name than an actual middle name. I didn't find any farm named Holerfos but thinking about it in that way made me think of the parish of Holla in Telemark in which there is a Foss farm and thinking with Ola perhaps the farm was Ulefoss of which there are numerous in Telemark. You could also continue with searching the possibles listed in lyndals post of John Olsen b. 1825ish from the Norwegian baptism database, looking next for confirmation records (rite completed about age 15 in the parish of residence) and then to see if there is a record of his migration (utflyttedes out migration in the parish registers--caveat not always informed for sailors who left as part of their job) leaving in the 1850s means he would not have been in the Norwegian port city's police lists which begin in about 1866 and being a sailor he may not have been recorded as leaving anyway. But you could follow each of those Johns in the records and see if any might be eliminated or accepted.
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9216 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2014 : 02:38:46
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Here are some Ancestry.com birth records for his chldren.
Australia Birth Index, 1788-1922
Name: Amelia Foss
Father's Name: Johann Foss
Mother's name: Agnes Bowler
Birth Place: Daylesford, Victoria
Registration Year: 1863
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration Number: 20104 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9216 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2014 : 02:46:06
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Australia Birth Index, 1788-1922
Name: Elizabeth Foss
Father's Name: Johan Foss
Mother's name: Agnes Emma Bowler
Birth Place: Eganstown, Victoria
Registration Year: 1871
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration Number: 2329 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9216 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2014 : 02:48:19
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Two other times that I have not posted he used the name Johon.
Australia Birth Index, 1788-1922
Name: Jessie Jane Foss
Father's Name: Johanola Foss
Mother's name: Agnes Emma Bowler
Birth Place: Campbells Creek, Victoria
Registration Year: 1859
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration Number: 21626 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9216 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2014 : 02:57:11
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I assume that this is a record of him moving from one place in Australia to another.
New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: John Foss
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Age: 30
Port of Departure: Adelaide, South Australia
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 24 Nov 1856
Vessel Name: Sea Nymph
Origin Location: Sweden |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9216 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2014 : 03:07:55
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Searching Ancestry.com data base All Norway, Select Baptisms, 1634-1927 results for Johan Foss born 1826 +/- 2 turns up three. All from the same family. I assume the last two are twins? Note the fathers nameis Ole
Name: Johan Mortinus Foss
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 20 des 1825 (20 Dec 1825)
Baptism Date: 5 mar 1826
Baptism Place: Domkirken, Trondheim, Sor Trondelag, Norway
Father: Ole Foss
Mother: Maria Elisabeth Foss
FHL Film Number: 126824
Reference ID: 2:2CN9RLS
Name: Johan Jacob Foss
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 9 apr 1828
Baptism Date: 1 jun 1828
Baptism Place: Domkirken, Trondheim, Sor Trondelag, Norway
Father: Ole Foss
Mother: Marie Foss
FHL Film Number: 126824
Reference ID: 2:2CNBB4S
Name: Johan Bernt Foss
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 9 apr 1828
Baptism Date: 1 jun 1828
Baptism Place: Domkirken, Trondheim, Sor Trondelag, Norway
Father: Ole Foss
Mother: Marie Foss
FHL Film Number: 126824
Reference ID: 2:2CNBB51 |
Edited by - AntonH on 08/06/2014 03:16:20 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9216 Posts |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9216 Posts |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9216 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2014 : 03:35:58
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Poster mentioned this marriage of a Agnes Emma Bowler. Maybe her first marriage?
Australia Marriage Index, 1788-1950
Name: Agnes Emma Bowler
Spouse Name: William Edward Davidson
Marriage Date: 19 Jan 1852
Marriage Place: Adelaide
Registration Place: Adelaide, South Australia
Page Number: 219
Volume Number: 9 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2014 : 00:07:08
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The Bowler/Foss family in Australia by Anthony Bowler link
Kåre |
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John Olsen Foss 1825 - 1891
