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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
 Posted - 07/08/2018 : 17:16:38
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According to Stavanger Aftenblad published 19 October 1929 page 2 and also in 1st Mai same date page 4
Andreas Tangva and his wife Gudrun Eugenie born Berland are celebrating a 25th wedding anniversary on 22nd.
An obituary was published in the Rogalands Avis on Friday 26 March 1965 on Andreas Tang Wa who was 85 years. No survivors mentioned by name except that it says he was married and had a large family. He came with kaptein Mejlænder.
A better obit lists these survivors of Andreas Tang Wa:
Elisabeth and Knut Enervold
Anny Hadland
Eli and Sigurd Tang Wa
Mary Hansen
Severine and Gustave Tang Wa
Fonglien and Finn Larsen
Bauthei and Tørres Tendeland
Gunvor and Harry Nødland
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Edited by - jkmarler on 08/08/2018 02:12:14 |
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michaelchangwong
Starting member
Australia
10 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2018 : 15:17:20
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quote:
Originally posted by jkmarler
The Norwegian Digitalarkivet has a digital set of information on pastoral acts performed in the Norwegian Seaman's mission churches which purports to contain acts from these places in China:
Anhwa
Changsha
Hong Kong
Ningsiang
Shanghai
Sinhwa
Taohwalun
Tungping
Yiyang
Yuankiang
However, I found no person named Carl (any spelling which would include Karl etc.) narrowed to China. Overall looking for any Carl / Karl in the whole base not limiting to China finds 163 Carls. It is possible that he is in the larger group using a different last name such as a patronymic name rather than a farm name.
Interesting problem....
quote:
Originally posted by jwiborg
Searching the Norwegian Digital Archives for females born in China between 1860-1890, residing in Norway gives the following 6 results:
1. Dagny Major, (b 1868 in Saigon, Cochin, China.) Parents Fredrik Christian Seiersted Major & Ditlevine Nathalie Dovra Major. Major is family name.
2. Grace Wallem, (b 1877-NOV-16, Shanghai, China). Wallem is married name.
3. Hanna Therese Margrethe Daae, (b 1883-OCT-21, Chefos, China). Daae is family name.
4. Harriet Mary Helland Madsen, (b 1868-SEP-13, Hong Kong, China). Madsen is married name.
5. Lissy Bull (b. 1886-09-23, China). Bull is family name.
6. Olava Margrethe Schjøth (b 1886-NOV-17, China). 23, China). Schjøth is family name.
quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
Nordahl Ericksen Wallem, born 1902, a son of Grace Jansen and Haakon Wallem, was a pupil at a Bergen school in 1917 (record found at National Digital Archives). He had been living in Hong Kong when he died:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/15/pa00000000720829
quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
Kina is the Norwegian word for China.
Males, any name, born 1860 - 1890 in Kina:
link
In some cases, birth place is noted as "China," and other place names might apply as well.
Search portal:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/
quote:
Originally posted by jwiborg
Males born in China between 1860-1890, residing in Norway:
1. Antonio Amundsen b 1866, Macao, China
2. Oscar Ulderup Bøe b 1868, Hong Kong China
3. Anton Ohlsen b 1870, China
4. Alfred Bonde b 1872-Dec-14, Shanghai, China
5. Ayo b 1876, China
6. Lorents Segelcke Daae b 1876-Dec-10, China
7. August Daae b 1878, China
8. Jacob Gerstenberg b 1878-Sep-01, Amoy, China
9. A. Pan b 1880, China
10. Afo/Andreas Tangva b 1880-Jul-17, Kantong China
11. Torbjørn Steinert b 1883-Mar-25, China
12. Hans Hauge Schjøth b 1885/1886-Sep-06, China
13. Erik Schjøth b 1888, China
14. Sam. M. Bull b 1890-Mar-22, China
15. Thomas Hammer Schlytter Schjøth b 1890-Mar-16, China
quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
The reason that Grace is of interest, is that if Carl was Carl Jansen Vang, she could possibly be a daughter. A long shot, but she isn't ruled out. Both Nordahl and Rita applied for vehicle permits in Bergen:
link
The nickname "Charlie" is of interest, as that is a nickname for the name Carl. Any slip of info from China or from the family might help, maybe.
JaneC, thanks greatly for your kind help. I am now seeing how you think. In comparison, I am just a novice! So, it is possible that for one of the daughters of “Carl Vang", wherever she was born or eventually located, be it Hong Kong, Shanghai, Dalian, and so on, the pastoral act was performed in a Norwegian Seaman's mission church in Shanghai. As might be the case for Grace Wallem. She might be one of the two children Carl had taken back to Norway with him.
Grace Wallem’s birth date is in line with the other slip of information that Wong Kam-Fuk was the first born. She would be 7 years younger than Kam-Fuk.
Continuing with the process of elimination: a birth date that is reasonably close either side of Kam-Fuk’s birth year of 1870, ignoring the information slip that he was 'first-born', and a mission church that must not be too far from the coast of China as Carl is a seaman. Based on that, Harriet Mary Helland Madsen would also be included. She would be 2 years older than Kam-fuk.
If the same logic as above is applied to the list of males, there would 6-7 candidates. It would be easier at this point to focus on the two female candidates. Will get back to the males later.
Can you please advise how or from where the name “Carl Jansen Vang”, which you mentioned as a possible name, could come about? Would it be: Grace’s maiden name was Grace Jansen, and by Norwegian naming custom her birth surname could have been taken from her father’s middle name?
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Michael |
Edited by - michaelchangwong on 08/08/2018 15:26:17 |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2018 : 16:51:41
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| Grace Wallem seems to be a dead end. Here she is listed as a daughter to Dewitt Clinton Jansen and Ellen Jansen. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2018 : 14:00:04
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quote:
Originally posted by michaelchangwong
[quote][i]
Can you please advise how or from where the name “Carl Jansen Vang”, which you mentioned as a possible name, could come about? Would it be: Grace’s maiden name was Grace Jansen, and by Norwegian naming custom her birth surname could have been taken from her father’s middle name?
Too bad about Grace.
Hi Michael, you are welcome and thanks for thanks from me and I am sure from everyone on this hard-working team.
Born in Norway in the first half of the 1800s, Carl was almost certainly given a patronym at birth. A patronym is based on father's first name. A patronym is not a middle name. It is the person's lifelong last name. An additional identifier such as Vang is like a nickname. It may or may not have been used throughout a lifetime. But as the 1800s progressed, more and more Norwegians dropped the patronymic naming custom. Instead they adopted heritable surnames. Probably Carl used Vang consistently and probably gave his children that name, but it is possible as a long shot that children deposited with relatives in Norway might choose to use his patronym instead. That kind of name choosing was part of the milieu of the times. To get a better understanding than this provides, you can read about Norwegian naming customs. An example explanation here
Hope this helps.  |
Edited by - JaneC on 09/08/2018 18:04:15 |
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michaelchangwong
Starting member
Australia
10 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2018 : 09:15:40
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A great explanation of the Norwegian naming customs!
A long shot. Is there a register in Norway of Norwegian honorary consuls or high officials who held these positions between 1870 and 1910? Carl was rumoured to have left Norway and returned to China to work as a ship pilot, and was also an honorary consul or high official with the Norwegian Consulate in China. I read somewhere that the former Kingdom of Sweden gave all Norwegian records to Norway when Norway became an independent country.
My relatives in Hongkong have also suggested that maybe a "Carl Vang" can be found in shipping registers for old shipping companies that plied the waters between Hong Kong, Shanghai, Port Arthur (Lushan) and Dalian. I have asked them to follow it up. It is interesting that the number of steamships commissioned to ply their trades between these ports and up Yangtse River grew significantly from 1870 onwards. |
Michael |
Edited by - michaelchangwong on 10/08/2018 09:23:11 |
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michaelchangwong
Starting member
Australia
10 Posts |
Posted - 16/08/2018 : 08:31:26
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I have been focusing on looking for the 2 children Carl might have taken back to Norway with him. Based on information strips, that would be either two girls, or one girl and one boy.
On the males, my research hasn't completed as yet. So far, I came across three born in China/Kina who appeared to have lived with families with surnames not the same as the boy (uncle, aunty plus cousins, perhaps), or the same (uncle etc, or even own family having came back from China). So they could have been deposited with relatives in Norway after being born in China. There are two list of males: one with birthplace filtered to "Kina", and other to "China". Much longer than the list of females. I am still wrapping my head around the lists of males.
Of the shorter list of 6 females, Grace Wallem, (b 1877-NOV-16, Shanghai, China) has been eliminated as per earlier posts. I have been focussing on Harriett Mary Helland Madsen (b 1868-SEP-13, Hong Kong, China). The 4 other females left on the list, kindly supplied by Jwiborg in an earlier post, had their parents clearly identified with no 'sounds like' to "Carl Vang". There was only one record of Harriett found on the Digitalarkivet. That was sourced from the 1922 census, when she was of age 54. She was in the same residence as Amund Helland Madsen (b 1861-12-04) and Karoline Lid (b1896-FEB-01, in Lindaas). There were many 9 records for Amund: 7 census, one military ballot, and one burial (burial date 1930-NOV-17 at Domkirken parish). Amund's family surname is in fact "Helland Madsen". Harriett Mary didn't appear on any of Amund's census records except the one in 1922 (when he was of age 61), so It can be safely assumed Harriett was married to Amund at some point and changed her surname to Helland Madsen. I then tracked Karoline Lid. She was listed in the 1910 census as Karolina Arnesdatter Li (b 1895-FEB-01 in Myking, Lindaas, Bergen) with 7 other members of her family, surname Li. Is this a Norwegian surname? In the 1922 census, she was listed as Karoline Lid. Karoline was then listed in Emigrants Bergen 1874-1930, as having emigrated on 1923-AUG-28, on the line Canadian Pacific III with destination as "Amk Everett Wash"(Everett Washington USA?). So, I have eliminated her as a daughter of the Helland Madsen.
This mysterious "Harriett Mary" is getting more intriguing! Maybe she was born in Hong Kong in 1968 and did not immigrate to Norway till late in life. Maybe she went back to Norway with Carl and records containing her details aren't on Digitalarkivet except the one for census 1922 after she returned to Norway once again? Maybe she travelled back to China with Carl very early in her life? Who were her parents? What was her surname before marriage? Did she have any children? Where could have Harriett and Amund married at? So many questions. Would be grateful for any help or points as to what best to do next.
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Michael |
Edited by - michaelchangwong on 16/08/2018 08:42:34 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 16/08/2018 : 09:03:34
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From the newspapers, not sure what the significance is. Full access only to Norwegian libraries, this is the OCR:
Norsk Kundgjørelsestidende published 1 Nov 1934:
"...«om nu alene innehas av Paal Sund Madsen. Lerken,, 27. oktober 1934. Paal Sund Madsen. Harriet Mary Helland Madsen. Registrert idag. Bergens byskriverembede, 19. okt. 1934. Johan de Besche. (9M) Gudrum…"
Tilgang i norske bibliotek
Paal Sund Madsen is a nephew to Harriet by dint of her marriage to Amund. PSM is the son of Amund's brother Einar. |
Edited by - jkmarler on 16/08/2018 09:40:47 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 16/08/2018 : 09:20:47
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Here is the text from the Gravminner I Norge listing for her:
Name Harriet Mary Madsen
Birth date 1309 1868
Died date 0506 1950
Strip of field Møllendal
Square K10
Row 02
Grave number 24
Obituary R.I.P.
Cemetery Møllendal
County/Municipality Hordaland/Bergen
Registrations by Slekt og Data
Transcriber Minde,Stokken,Sletten,Tellefsen,Sjursen,Opskar,Wågenes,Solheim,Lilleeng,Asbjørnsen,Askeland,Lindgren,Knutrud,Eknes,Mork,Lier
Registration finished November 2005 (2/3 av kirkegården)
Notes Ingebjørg Minde har tatt Haukeland og deler av Møllendal. Anne-M. Stokken, Steinar Sletten, Jarl R. Tellefsen, Roald Sjursen, Kjetil Opskar har tatt Grønneviken. Victor Dahl har fotografert felt G00 og E00 på Møllendal. Bidratt med bilder: Eskil Krogstad, Unni Fornes, Inger-Lise Øverås, Birger Huun, Thomas Bjørnestad Pettersen, Aili Vibeke Mjåtvedt Holst, Astri S. Tellevik
Photographer Minde,Hauge,Stokken,Tellefsen,Opskar,Dahl,Wågenes,Solheim,Knutrud,
About the registration Gravminnene |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
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michaelchangwong
Starting member
Australia
10 Posts |
Posted - 16/08/2018 : 11:32:49
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Jackie, I noticed the bottom of the Gravminner listing read in part (using Google translator), "...Victor Dahl has photographed fields G00 and E00 at Møllendal." I wonder if that means photographs of the gravestones had been taken? Harriet's grave is indeed in the strip of field Møllendal. It would be a great help if a photo of Harriet's headstone is available, as there might be information on the stone that can help further. Many thanks.
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Michael |
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1293 Posts |
Posted - 16/08/2018 : 13:19:32
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I would suggest starting with identifying Carl Vang in the Norwegian records prior to traveling to China. It would be a great lead if we could find the year of birth. There are a just a few candidates.
It does not appear that we can find a good match for Carl Vang (or Wang) in the the Norwegian records within the time-frame when he should have returned to Norway from China. Neither do we find the children. Could he have taken them elsewhere when he left China? Australia or America? How sure are you that they actually returned to Norway? |
Børge Solem |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 16/08/2018 : 15:42:50
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quote:
Originally posted by michaelchangwong
Jackie, I noticed the bottom of the Gravminner listing read in part (using Google translator), "...Victor Dahl has photographed fields G00 and E00 at Møllendal." I wonder if that means photographs of the gravestones had been taken? Harriet's grave is indeed in the strip of field Møllendal. It would be a great help if a photo of Harriet's headstone is available, as there might be information on the stone that can help further. Many thanks.
There is the same photo attached to all the Madsen burials which occurred in the L Sigvard Madsen burial plot at the Møllendal cemetery. At least I didn't find any individual markers pictured for the individuals identified as being there. For some reason, links to the records in Gravminner are fugitive. Gravminner I Norge website: https://www.disnorge.no/gravminner/index.php?language=engelsk
From the marriage report, it appears that Amund and probably Harriet (widow woman Sass) married in Denmark in 1916, why do that there?
The earliest Carl Vang reference in the newspapers with a sea-going occupation mentioned was transcribed above, occured in a Bergen paper, a slight connection of location?
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 16/08/2018 : 16:32:16
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Harriet Mary born 1868 in Hong Kong,
Found in registry of inhabitants of Copenhagen:
link
Married to Christian Carl Vilhelm Sass,
born 2-8-1862, Itzehoe, Holstein
Occupation: Skibsmægler
Marriage record
Christian Karl Wilhelm Sass
Harriet Mary Helland
link
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Edited by - JaneC on 16/08/2018 16:55:16 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
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Searching for g-g-grandfather d.o.b. 1820s-1840s
