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ToreL
Advanced member
Norway
815 Posts |
 Posted - 09/04/2021 : 15:05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Borge
Census 1865: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01038329001459
According to Tiller bygdebook, the family moved from Håbrua (Haabroen) to Trondheim already in 1866. In case nobody has posted it before, here is a possible burial of Johan in January of 1871. (#7). The given age of 58 years and 11 months almost matches a birth in April of 1812. |
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ToreL
Advanced member
Norway
815 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2021 : 15:36:51
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quote:
Originally posted by lizabethbibler
We actually have seen something of Oline Randine and her descendants that are Geneologists and they were very kind in assisting us and they were also very certain my cousins and I were related to Johan Johansen Moe based on their paper trail. But, one of my cousins who is very astute regarding DNA matches couldn’t find sufficient evidence of a blood trail to satisfy her. Our problem has been that until today when you discovered other children he had fathered and he was identified by his military unit and number, we had no way of knowing that our Johan was a Moe. Now we must follow his bloodline if we can and see if we find descendants that are in our DNA matches. There must be a lot because that guy really got around. A real charmer. And thanks for sending the movie clip!
If these descendants are your own generation, they would be your "half" third cousins, i.e. somewhere between third and fourth cousins. Now 10% of third cousins and 50% of fourth cousins have no shared DNA. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
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lizabethbibler
Starting member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2021 : 15:47:48
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| I am almost speechless with all the details you brilliant researchers have uncovered. I am so impressed. So, as I understand it, my Johan Johansen is Johan Andreas Johansen Moe, born 16 April 1812. His father was Jon Jensen Moe, born 1784, a baker journeyman who died 8 Jan 1827, found dead in the Nidelv River under a dock house in Bakklandet. His mother was Elen Birgitte Larsdatter Moe (Hansteen), born in 1792 and married 19 Mar 1812 to Jon Jensen Moe. After about 2 years she left the marriage and her son, Johan. Eventually, she became pregnant by a married farmer named Jens Olsen and gave birth to a son named Olaus who was baptized 28 Apr 1816. Olaus is the child she left to drown. I hope I have these details correct! Before I lose track of all the children my great-great grandfather, Johan Andreas Johansen Moe fathered, I want to backtrack to a post Jackie made on the 8th at 20:31:13...”And another child #82”...this seems to be a daughter born on 8 April 1841 and baptized 31 May 1841 named Julie Marie and the child’s mother looks to be Fonetta Trondsdatter...???? plus possibly something additional to her name? I want to be sure to add this child to the list of his children. Would you kindly look at the record once more and tell me if I’m correct? |
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lizabethbibler
Starting member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2021 : 15:58:51
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| Thank you for the DNA statistics. This is new news to me and very valuable information because I can honestly say that my cousins and I have ruled out our relationship to various people based on the fact that we didn’t find a DNA link. We probably made many mistakes with this assumption. Going forward we will be more open minded. |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2021 : 16:46:56
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quote:
Originally posted by lizabethbibler
...this seems to be a daughter born on 8 April 1841 and baptized 31 May 1841 named Julie Marie and the child’s mother looks to be Fonetta Trondsdatter...???? plus possibly something additional to her name?
Mothers name reads Jonetta Tronsdatter ... Sandbatteriet
Her father is listed as bachelor and ... Johan Johnsen.
Hard to tell if it's "your" Johan Johnsen without reading his profession...
Btw; Elen Birgitte Larsdatter Moe died 22 Feb 1860.
#40 https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/2343/14821/16 |
Edited by - jwiborg on 09/04/2021 16:57:29 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2021 : 17:33:23
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I am not alone in thinking his title on Julie Marie's baptism is artillerist:
Somebody in the indexing department of the Digitalarkivet does too:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000003107814
Granted the A is written different from almost all the others on the page.... |
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1293 Posts |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2021 : 20:11:40
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quote:
Originally posted by jkmarler
I am not alone in thinking his title on Julie Marie's baptism is artillerist:
Somebody in the indexing department of the Digitalarkivet does too:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000003107814
Granted the A is written different from almost all the others on the page....
May is say ungkarl og afskediget Artillerist Johan Johnsen?
bachelor and dismissed gunner Johan Johnsen?
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Edited by - jwiborg on 09/04/2021 20:26:55 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2021 : 20:46:41
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| I guess that gets us back to the original question regarding Johan's military records whether or not they can play any role here.. Is there any way to consult them and see when Johan was in and out of the army? |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2021 : 21:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by jkmarler
I guess that gets us back to the original question regarding Johan's military records whether or not they can play any role here.. Is there any way to consult them and see when Johan was in and out of the army?
Not sure. I read somewhere that there are very few military records available for the time and people are questioning why or where they are. Are they lost, did the Swedes take them, are they in Copenhagen...? |
Edited by - jwiborg on 09/04/2021 21:02:31 |
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1293 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2021 : 22:37:19
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| When Julie Marie was baptized her father was given as Johan Johnsen Halseth. Julie Marie also used Halseth as her surname through life, For this I fint not very likely to be a connection to Johan Johnsen Moe. See #27: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/2341/14812/62 |
Børge Solem |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2021 : 23:39:37
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Here is a different child born in Trondheim of Johan Moe and Maren:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000001008318
#24SAT, Ministerialprotokoller, klokkerbøker og fødselsregistre - Sør-Trøndelag, 601/L0054: Parish register (official) no. 601A22, 1866-1877, p. 33
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20050613010615
His confirmation transcribed and with a ripple on his mother's first name:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/279/pk00000000825296
#45
SAT, Ministerialprotokoller, klokkerbøker og fødselsregistre - Sør-Trøndelag, 601/L0057: Parish register (official) no. 601A25, 1877-1891, p. 270
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060125020280
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Edited by - jkmarler on 10/04/2021 00:01:37 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2021 : 02:13:20
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quote:
Originally posted by jwiborg
From the Supreme Court Sentence 21 May 1818:
Elen Birgitte Larsdatter Moe (Hansteen)
Born 1792
Married 1813 to a baker journeyman from Trondheim
Got a child, but after two years they split up and the father took care of the child support.
She then lived by her own without any work. In October 1815 she gave birth to a child with a married farmer (double whoredom), Jens Olsen.
The boy was named Olaus, christened on the 28th. (april 1816)
On 12 May 1817, she was sentenced to 2 months penitentiary work for theft.
Her illegitimate son Olaus was then already (since winter of 1816-1817) on support from the poor relief fund, and raised by a foster woman in Trondheim.
When Elen was released from the penitentiary work prison on 14 Jul 1817 at 9:30 AM, the foster mother was waiting outside the prison with Olaus.
She could no longer take care of him. Elen then took Olaus, who was now 1y 9m old, and promised to behave properly and take care of him.
Elen had learned that Olaus' father had come to town, so she went to the district Ila, where she met him, and asked him for assistance for child support.
He refused to pay for any support, and Elen took the child down to the bay of the Trondheim fiord.
At 11 AM she placed her son (which were asleep) on a dry rock. The rock would be under water at high tide, and any movement would also result in the baby falling into the water.
At 2:30 PM the baby was found drowned by a soldier that was going for a bath.
Some witnesses claim that the rock at 11 AM already would have been 2 feet below water, so it is not unlikely that Elen could have thrown the baby into the water.
On the return trip from the bay, she met with several people that asked her where her son was, whereby she replied that she had left him with a woman in Ila, and that he now had a good foster mother, and was taken good care of.
When she was arrested after the soldier's findings, she immediately confessed.
The autopsy showed that the boy (which was healthy and well, and could walk and speak a little) was dead by drowning, and there were no traces of external violence to the body.
This one? #82
Sør-Trøndelag county, Domkirken in Trondheim, Parish register (official) no. 601A11 (1815-1821), Born and baptised 1815, Page 26-27
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070921610063
#39
Sør-Trøndelag county, Domkirken in Trondheim, Parish register (official) no. 601A11 (1815-1821), Deceased and buried 1817, Page 208-209
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070921610153
#2 right hand page:
Sør-Trøndelag county, Hospitalet in Trondheim, Parish register (copy) no. 623C01 (1815-1873), Born and baptised 1818, Page 4
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070924660003
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Edited by - jkmarler on 10/04/2021 02:35:31 |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2021 : 13:41:03
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The dock houses @ Bakklandet in the city centre of Trondheim, and the mouth of the Nidelva river. Jon Jensen Moe was found under one of these houses.
Elen Larsdatter Moe was arrested just a few hours after Olaus was found drowned, on 14 Jul 1817. 3 months later, on 09 Oct 1817, "sailor Even Kristiansen from Farsund" gets arrested for theft, and is put in the same jail as Elen. This Even is in fact Gjest Baardsen, but he is using stolen id-papers from a drunken sailor he met. Elen and Gjest met in the prison yard and quickly became close acquaintances.
While she is waiting for the supreme court sentence, she get very anxious and Gjest takes the role as her therapist.
After she get the death penalty on 12 Mar 1818, she has a nervous breakdown, and Gjest which has become her nearest confidant get the caretaker's permission to be with her at all times, even at night.
In his autobiography, Gjest writes what she has told him about her life.
She tells about her husband, and how bad he had been towards her, and that she had to leave him.
Getting a divorce was not easy those days, so separation was often the solution, the situation that the spouses lived separately was called "separated from table and bed".
But in legal terms she was still married to baker journeyman Jon Jensen Moe when she got pregnant with Olaus. Jens Olsen was also married, that's why they called it "double whoredom" in the indictment.
The prosecution could not locate Jens Olsen and get him convicted of infidelity. The charge of infidelity was dropped for Elens' part, as she had already received the most severe punishment by law. When her infidelity results in a child who is not his, Jon Jensen Moe automatically gets a divorce by judgment.
On 18 Mar 1818, 6 days after the verdict, they escape from prison together with a third cellmate named Arent Olsen. Using a knife they cut through two doors at nighttime, and get to the roof. It's almost 6 meters (20 feet) down to the street, and Elen hangs in the gutter for a while before she dares to drop. When Gjest arrives, she sits on the ground and laughs. The skirts she was wearing had protruded and acted as a parachute when she jumped. They eventually arrive in Kristiansund, but get arrested there after 3 weeks on the run, on April 9th.
They sit in Kristiansund jail until the summer, before it is decided that they shall be returned to Trondheim prison. The transport goes by sea, and Gjest plans a new escape. The prison guards decide to have lunch on an islet, and Elen is asked to cook some coffee.
Elen is pregnant, and she says to Gjest that its best he escape alone. They agree to go their separate ways from now on, and that they part there.
They take a secret farewell, and Elen ask the prison guards if Even (as she knows him by) can go and find water for the coffee.
Gjest picks up the bucket, walks away on the islet, and when he is out of sight he throws the bucket and run down to the sea and swim across the strait to the mainland. He was gone before the guards had time to react. This was the last time Elen and Gjest saw each other.
For unknown reasons Gjest sets course back to Trondheim, where he is arrested again on July 14th. He had probably hoped to meet Elen again in the prison, but she's not there. As he had foreseen, her death sentence had been commuted to life imprisonment by the new King Karl III Johan, and she was now serving time in the penitentiary, which was a different prison.
On Dec 2nd 1818, Elen gives birth to Inger Maria. 9 months earlier, Gjest had received the caretaker's permission to stay with her 24/7....  |
Edited by - jwiborg on 11/04/2021 09:12:39 |
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Searching for a Johan Johansen born 1813 i
