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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
5821 Posts

Posted - 15/04/2018 :  06:53:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
https://digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000002029462

A 19 April 1812 death transcription at the link above:
"Enken, Indlæg hos Lars Sønderengen, Syndbye"

is translated by Google translate as:
"The widow, Speaking at Lars Sønderengen, Syndbye"

Could "indlæg hos" actually mean something like "namely" ? Or since speaking at seems off, is there a better interpretation?

Nice to see Google translate is learning some grammar, that the articles go at the end of the words!

Edited by - jkmarler on 15/04/2018 06:54:26

lyndal40
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
6355 Posts

Posted - 15/04/2018 :  16:52:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It will be interesting to see how the native speakers translate it. I would have guessed it to be "message from" but that does not seem to fit any better
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran

Norway
4533 Posts

Posted - 15/04/2018 :  19:56:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think it should be Indlægd, ie. legdslem

Legd, legdslem; a form of care for the poor, as they moved from farm to farm with short-term stay in each place. A person who was taken care of was called a legdslem or indlægd.
So the widow Mari (80) was a legdslem, currently staying at Lars Sønderengen on Syndby farm.

A legd was a group of farms in the district who had a duty to perform certain social tasks such as paying taxes, provide and equippe soldiers and or entertaining poor people.

Edited by - jwiborg on 15/04/2018 20:26:09
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lyndal40
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USA
6355 Posts

Posted - 15/04/2018 :  22:38:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That makes more sense, here from Norwegian Genealogy Dictionary

legdslem/lægdslem – community supported pauper

Link

Edited by - lyndal40 on 15/04/2018 22:39:15
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
5821 Posts

Posted - 16/04/2018 :  00:23:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Many thanks to all for help with this translation and clarification. But if she was staying with Lars on Sønderengen or Syndby (or Sundby) why is Tangen given as her residence?

In the 1801 census (for all of Buskerud) there are only two Mari b 1730-1734, both are widowed one was a Trulsdatter and the other was an Andersdatter. Hard to say if either are her.

I was hoping that in pursuing her that there might be a clue to the origin of my ancestor (3 great grandfather) Ole Larsen Sundby and his father (my 4 great grandfather) Lars Larsen Sønderengen. There are a couple of possibles but nothing definitive yet.

Back to the drawing board... Thanks again.

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lyndal40
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
6355 Posts

Posted - 16/04/2018 :  02:39:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You have been looking for this information for some time if memory serves me right. I remember that you had an earlier post dealing with when Ole Larsen bought Syndbye. If I am correct in my assumption that Ole married in 1814 and this is the record, then he and probably his father were using the farm name Sønderengen. Is there a bygdebok for this farm in Norderhov that gives any information on the parents of Lars?

Link

I think that Vivi used this book to find out a little information on when the farm came into the hands of Lars Larsen Sønderengen and his son Ole Larsen

Lagesen, A. Ringerikske slekter, v. 3 1935 DL596.R53 L33 Farms Norderhov main parish; Reprint

Edited by - lyndal40 on 16/04/2018 17:10:19
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jkmarler
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USA
5821 Posts

Posted - 16/04/2018 :  06:01:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks I have the my own copies of the bygdebøker for Ringerike, they were helpful but only to the same point as other records have indicated, that Ole Larsen was the son of Lars Larsen and they had Sønderengen and a part of Sundby. I don't have a birthdate or year for Ole Larsen, nor an exact date of death for certain just an approximate time.

Of the deaths of Ole Larsen in Norderhov during that period of time approximately 1827-1831, there were 3 an Ole who died at age 80, one who died at age 67 and one who was a little boy who died at 4 months or years, I forget which. The likeliest of these 3 is the 67 year old but I have nothing else to indicate this is the right fellow, other than dying at the right time and place.

Lars Larsen the father has two approximate birth years in the records I've seen. At his death in 1835 his age calculates to a birth year of 1752. At his marriage to Margit Syversdatter in 1816, his age is given as 60 years so a birthyear of 1756. Neither 1752 nor 1756 is a is a reasonable birthyear to be a father of someone by 1764 (calculated from death at 67 in 1831.)

Ole Larsen married Mari Jonsdatter Sundby and they had these children in this order:
1. Johannes
2. Johanne
3. John
4. Lars
5. Anne
6. Peder
7. Maren
8. Engebret.

Engebret was born 5 June 1828 so the last time Ole Larsen would have been absolutely known to be alive would be on or about Sept-Oct 1827 and when he is first listed as "afgang" on his daughter Johanne's confirmation record on 2 Oct 1831.

After Ole sold his part of Sundby / Sønderengen in 1823, he became a husman on other places in Norderhov but was mostly called Ole Larsen Sundbye. Of the faddernes of the baptisms of his children, there is only one Larsen / Larsdatter amongst them, as Olea Larsdatter on one, and on another named Olia Larsdatter Vager. Farm homes of the faddernes were mostly Sundbye, Vager, Bjørnstad with a few others here and there.

Lately I've been looking at two possible families one in Norderhov and the other in Hole, a neighboring parish.

I'll come back with links, if you are interested and thanks for that.
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lyndal40
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
6355 Posts

Posted - 16/04/2018 :  22:20:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How many times was Lars Larsen married. Must have been more than one right

Was he ever married to a Hellene or Ellen Hansdatter?

I guess my real question is, where is he in the 1801 Census

Edited by - lyndal40 on 17/04/2018 00:15:39
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
5821 Posts

Posted - 17/04/2018 :  02:25:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lars Larsen, the father, was married at least twice. He was enkemand when he married Margit Syversdatter. Here is the link to their marriage:
#59
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070313670071

With no particular proof, other than being in the right place and the right time this 65 year old Kirstie Engebretsdatter on Sonderengen may be his wife #5, her death making him a widower:
SAKO, Norderhov kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0008: Parish register (official) no. 8, 1814-1833, p. 190-191
Quick link: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070313660698

Interesting there is a Norderhov marriage in 1798 between a Lars Larsen and a Kierste Ingebretsdatter:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWWM-LYR

A mistaken index for the actual record shows the groom as Ulrich Torgersen Sundet or Lundet 27 Dec in left margin on left page:
SAKO, Norderhov kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0006: Parish register (official) no. 6, 1789-1811, p. 163
Quick link: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070313660404



]There are 7 Lars Larsen who were born between 1750 and 1757 in the 1801 census, limited to just Buskerud fylke. The number is in the 3hundreds if not limited geographically.

1. Lars Larsen in Hole
This is the one from Hole that I've been studying. He is widowed, his first wife, Kirsti Olsdatter, having died in 1797.
https://digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058269000610

In most of the parish records in which he appears he is called Lars Sollum, jr.

There is a not well sourced family tree at familysearch which purports to cover this family.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:1:MKBX-44C

There were 3 sons named Ole all of whom died as infants except for the Ole b about 1795 and there is no deathdate for him. In addition this Lars marries a second time to another widow named Anne Andersdatter living on Aasterud about 1805.

The database also doesn't have a death date for Lars. The database gives his parents as Lars Larsen and Ronnaug Ellingsdatter who are both living in 1801 on Sollum farm, although each passes on in the next 10 years or so.

2. Lars Larsen on Somdalen farm in Norderhov:
https://digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058270006571

Interesting because his second wife's name is Kierste although her patronymic is not Engebretsdatter but Amundsdatter. With this being his second marriage it opens the possibility that there is an Ole in the prior marriage. On the other hand, there are a bunch of little kids in this family and so why when Lars dies in 1835 are they not provided for and Ole's children were? Did none of them survive?

3. Lars Larsen age 50 living in Sandsvaer with wife and small children. A young family and no Ole in this Lars' first marriage
https://digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058279003249

4. Lars Larsen married to an Elen Hansdatter (your candidate!)
https://digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058268004889

5. Lars Larsen and family but no Ole:
https://digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058273003467

6. Lars Larsen with a 4 year old Ole so born about 1797. My Ole Larsen married in 1814. Norwegian women are pretty sensible who would marry an Ole Larsen only 17, especially one who might have rights to Sundby in her right?
https://digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058281003489

7. Lars Larsen unmarried, but of course that doesn't exclude children, he seems a confirmed bachelor.
https://digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058271005579




Edited by - jkmarler on 17/04/2018 02:59:43
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lyndal40
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
6355 Posts

Posted - 17/04/2018 :  03:43:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A lot of information in that last post. I got to the question about wife Elen Hansdattter using my Ancestry data base. It seems that there really are not as many children named Ole father Lars Larsen born in Norderhov born about the time one would expect. In fact there are only two. Now that assumes that Ancestry transcribed all of the candidates which is a bit dicey. But for what its worth here they are,

Name: Ole Larsen
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 2 nov 1777
Baptism Place: Norderhov,Buskerud,Norway
Father: Lars Larsen
Mother: Johanne Haralsdr
FHL Film Number: 124052

Last entry left page

Link

Name: Ole Larsen
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 12 sep 1790
Baptism Place: Norderhov,Buskerud,Norway
Father: Lars Larsen
Mother: Ellen Hansdr
FHL Film Number: 124052

Next to last right hand page

Link

Edited by - lyndal40 on 17/04/2018 03:59:01
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
5821 Posts

Posted - 17/04/2018 :  03:58:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay so here is Ole 1790 in the 1801 census on Halkinrud:
https://digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058270005377

And possibly Ole 1777:
https://digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058270000434
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
5821 Posts

Posted - 17/04/2018 :  04:32:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lyndal40

A lot of information in that last post. I got to the question about wife Elen Hansdattter using my Ancestry data base. It seems that there really are not as many children named Ole father Lars Larsen born in Norderhov born about the time one would expect. In fact there are only two. Now that assumes that Ancestry transcribed all of the candidates which is a bit dicey. But for what its worth here they are,

Name: Ole Larsen
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 2 nov 1777
Baptism Place: Norderhov,Buskerud,Norway
Father: Lars Larsen
Mother: Johanne Haralsdr
FHL Film Number: 124052

Last entry left page

Link

Name: Ole Larsen
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 12 sep 1790
Baptism Place: Norderhov,Buskerud,Norway
Father: Lars Larsen
Mother: Ellen Hansdr
FHL Film Number: 124052

Next to last right hand page

Link



Lars and Johanne Trolovede / Engagement 2nd from bottom on right hand page:
SAKO, Norderhov kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0005: Parish register (official) no. 5, 1775-1789, p. 48
Quick link: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070313660050

Marriage of Lars Larsen and Johanne:
SAKO, Norderhov kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0005: Parish register (official) no. 5, 1775-1789, p. 51
Quick link: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070313660053


Ole's baptism last entry left page:
SAKO, Norderhov kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0005: Parish register (official) no. 5, 1775-1789, p. 52
Quick link: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070313660054

So there are a couple of new farms to look up. On Haug page 87 in book II of Ringerikske Slekter there is a long time owner of the farm named Harald Hansen. It says he bought the farm about 1755 and had til the early 1790s, was married to Anne Christiansdatter had many children and 1 son Peder. Harald died first then Anne after she had been a widow for 5 years in 1799. Peder Haraldsen had the farm from 1791 to his death in 1808 at age 50.

Edited by - jkmarler on 17/04/2018 05:31:57
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lyndal40
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
6355 Posts

Posted - 17/04/2018 :  23:10:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Larsdatter amongst them, as Olea Larsdatter on one, and on another named Olia Larsdatter Vager.


Looking for this person, without much luck. However when i left open the birth date I did come across this one.

Name: Olia Larsen
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 13 sep 1812
Baptism Place: Norderhov,Buskerud,Norway
Father: Lars Larsen
Mother: Olia Fingardsdr
FHL Film Number: 124052

Looking at the original it is interesting because the father is Lars Larsen Somdalen of Wiger.

Second entry right page

Link

Likely the marriage

Name: Olia Fingarsdr
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 20 okt 1793 (20 Oct 1793)
Marriage Place: Norderhov,Buskerud,Norway
Spouse: Lars Larsen
FHL Film Number: 124052

Here is the family in 1801 Census. In the same list as the Lars Larsen of Somdalen that you posted above. Is there a connection to your Lars Larsen?

1801

Edited by - lyndal40 on 17/04/2018 23:49:50
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
5821 Posts

Posted - 18/04/2018 :  02:27:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote


None that I know of....
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lyndal40
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
6355 Posts

Posted - 20/04/2018 :  03:47:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well plugging away at your ancestors I seem to have dismissed rightly or wrongly the folks living at Somdalen in 1801. The children of the various Lars Larsen found there seem to be too young. the family living at Halchinrud might be interesting but I have not made any progress on tracing the parents back in time.

I wonder what you think of this line.

Your post and link

Lars Larsen married Margit Sivertsdatter in 1816

#59

Perhaps he had a previous marriage

Lars Larsen Somdalen married Kiersti Olsdatter in June 15, 1799, living at Trogstad in 1801 Census.

1801

I also see a Margit Syversdatter on the same page

Marriage Miiddle left page June 15,

Link

Perhaps he had another previous wife named Johanne Haraldsdatter. At that time he seemed to be using the name Lars Larsen Wegsteen or Vegstein. You have posted many of the links to this couple above.

Here is the clearest image of the couple that I have found. The baptism in 1777 of Ole last record on the left page

Link

Johanne is likely the daughter of a Harald Kytte or Kyta and she was born Oct 28, 1745.

Name: Johanne Haraldsen
[Johanne Kytte]
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 28 okt 1745 (28 Oct 1745)
Baptism Place: Norderhov,Buskerud,Norway
Father: Harald Kytte
Mother: Anne Christiansdr
FHL Film Number: 124051

Original record is on the left hand page near the bottom.

Link

Her father is likely Harold Hansen baptized June 11, 1715 Kyta, Norderhov (Houg), Buskerud

Middle of left page, Parents are Hans Haraldson and Dorte Gundersdatter.

Link

Hans Haraldson married Dorte Gundersdatte on Jan 20 1712

Link


Unfortunately there are at least five Lars Larsens born about 1745 in Norderhov so trying to pick the right one was not possible from the list that comes out of a Ancestry.com search for 1745 plus/minus 10.

Edited by - lyndal40 on 23/04/2018 02:06:15
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lyndal40
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
6355 Posts

Posted - 20/04/2018 :  05:05:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is the list of baptism dates and parents that came from the search for first name Lars, fathers name Lars baptism dates 1745 plus/minus 10, location Buskerud Norderhov.

Fathers and mothers of Lars Larsen from ancestry.com list of Buskerud, Norderhaug.

bap Sep 3, 1741 Lars Oplaending and Eli Pedersdatter

Link

Probably father is Lars Larsen had another son Peder Sep 29.1748

bap July 9, 1747 Lars Joensen and Aase Larsdatter

Link

bap April 16, 1752 Lars Schojen and Gune Schojen

bap Sep 22, 1754 Lars Halvorsen and Else Larsdatter

Link

bap Oct 18, 1755 Lars Christophersen and Kari Larsdatter

Probably Lars Christophersen Somdalen.

Link

Called Lars Chritsophersen Somdalen in marriage record.

Link

Edited by - lyndal40 on 25/04/2018 00:03:29
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