Dark Norwegians?
BecEsc	I hope this doesn't sound terribly naive. I just got a picture of my great, great grandmother, Mary Ann Forlie, and it's not what I expected. She has dark, dark hair and eyes...Some of her kids in the picture have white hair and some of the others look dark, almost like Native Americans. She came across on the Emelie with her parents and I have several records, military and otherwise stating there were no other marriages for either she or her husband...So, the kids are theirs, only. Can someone shed some light on this for me?
xangler	Hi, I was just having a look and found your posting. Being a native Norwegian I can confirm that many of us have dark hair, dark eyes and look very different from the Blond Viking Stereotype. When I was young my hair and beard was blue-black. Only my eyes are more of a blue/grey. I was borne and grew up in the 50ies and 60ies in the inner, central part of Norway and there were no "foregn" elements around (unlike today) If you look at the population of Norway 20-30 years ago you would probaably find allmost 50/50 of blondes and darks. Today the "Darks" are increasing. Best Regards jan Erik Frithjofsen janfrit@c2i.net
Borge	I can just confirm what Jan Erik has said. Near where I live in Norway there are many very dark people, looking almost as they are from the Mediterranean areas, and traditions say a ship of Portuguese or Spanish sailors stranded on the coast off the area some centuries back. I have never seen any evidence in the sources which can verify the traditional saying, but it makes some sense. I addition to that, there has been immigration to Norway from other parts of Europe for centuries. Børge Solem
askeroi	"... like native americans" you say? We do have a nomadic "native" people in Norway, too. The english word for our "indians" are unfortunately not in my dictionary. (The norwegian word is "same"). Today most of them are just as rural as everybody else, but some are still living in the oldfashioned way with raindeer in the north of Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia. And their colorful clothes are often seen at parties and on the national day. Especially if she was from the northern part of Norway she could have anchesters among this people - it's not that uncommon. In the southern/eastern parts of Norway we have been regularly vistited by "travelling people" - again such words are not in the dictionary. They could be gypsies or of finnish inheritage a o. This is not too uncommon either, though this is more kept as "family secrets" especially as there hardly were any marriages between the "races". And of course you have "normal" non-blondes like mentioned above. I didn't mean to confuse you. Hopefully Børge has a better dictionary than I do and can "translate"... askeroi
Borge	I think the word you are looking for is "Laplander" or "Lap" for "same", I do not know a good English word for "traveling people". Børge Solem
R. A. Stone	I tease my Italian friends about why those good looking girls from northern Italy have blue eyes....Those vikings got around!!!
Halvpalle	dark hair and eyes are more common in western norway, people are often shorter too. This could be the remnants of a non-germanic people that lived there before. My mother is very dark, when she was younger she almost looked like an indian. Of 4 children, I'm the only one with blue eyes.
Andrea Anderson	Hi everyone, my dad's family has both dark and light mix. My great Uncle Leif had jet black hair and dark eyes, some people thought he was a native or something My great Uncle Hilmar had sandy red colored hair and they are brothers! So you can't always go by that. Because it can jump generations. My dad has dark eyes, jet black hair, tall, and wide shouldered, but I am blonde and hazel-eyed. But slanty-eyed like from the Kvaan decent. My great-great grandparents were from the Fin/Swede border. And what found out is the Fins have slanty eyes. Go figure? yours, Andrea Malodie Tchapko
LouieInSeattle	My grandfather was called a dark Norwegian, but nobody knows why. He was from Undheim, Norway, near Stavanger. National Geographic and IBM have teamed up to map the DNA of people all over the world, so maybe we'll find out where our dark blood came from! I urge you to sign up. It only costs about $100 and that also helps fund the project, plus you get personal results at the end. Skol!
Jo Anne Sadler	Well now, this is a good topic. My Mother's grandparents were from Børge's area, they were both dark haired. My Mother was kidded alot when she was young and was called a Black Norwegian, dark hair, brown eyes and olive skin. My Father's family was from the Vang, Valdres area and no blondes in that family tree here. I personally have dark hair and brown eyes. My observation is that the Danes and Swedes are the typically blond haired, blue eyed sterotypes of Scandinavians. My understanding is that the Norwegians, with their long coastline on the sea, were the predominate exploratory raiders/sailors/traders and ventured out more than Danes or Swedes into the Mediterranean areas and brought back women from those areas. Not politcally correct, but[:p].
carraj	I was enjoying reading the posts on this subject and laughed out loud when I got to Jo Anne's! My father too, was teased and called a "Black Norwegian"! He could easily have passed for Italian, black hair, hazel eyes. None of us kids has dark hair or eyes. I have no pictures of my great-grandfather or great-grandmother, but neither of my father's parents were dark. My father's ancestors are also from Børge Solem's area. One day we may all find we have relatives in common!! So BecEsc, good to know your family is not so unusual, huh!
Jerry	This history of different ethnic groups in Norway is interesting. The history and geography books leave out a lot about the minority groups that might have been the original inhabitants of many European countries. Later, the Vikings brought back slaves, from the countries they raided.
iverskat	i was just reading some of the posts, this is funny. my father had always told us he had white hair when he was young and turned black as he got older. grandma also was fair haired and then she had brown hair after awhile. me, i am blonde still.
Borge	There are many excamples of Norwegians in the Viking sagas are known to have been dark. Most people on this forum probably know about the famous Viking King Harald Hårfager (i.e., fair hair) and have heard the story about his beautiful and abundant head of hair. However, his father was Halfdan Svarte (Halfdan the Black), so called by reason of his black hair. They were said to descend from the Ynglingeætt, i.e., the old Norse Gods.
Jerry	In my own family, hair and complexions often get darker as people get older. Up to age 7 or so, my hair was almost white, and so was my complexion. Later, my skin tanned, by my late teens at least my hair was dark brown, like that of my parents. As I mentioned yesterday, the Vikings had slaves, but I think most of them were either Irish or "Pictish" slaves. The "Picts" would be the aboriginal inhabitants of the non-Celtic, or at least non-Gaelic, Isles such as the Orkneys, the Shetlands and the Faeroes, and such mainland areas as Sutherland and.Caithness that the Celts hadn't conquered. The Eddas I think mentioned the "swarthy" complexion of a "Thrall," who might be a Sami (Lapp) aborigine of Norway. "Thrall" meant "slave" in Norwegian and in Anglo-Saxon, but could it have been a cognate to "troll?" (The troll-like monster Glam, in the "Grettis-saga" was I think called a "thrall.") In Britain the "Travelers" (or "Tinkers") are distinct from the Gypsies. The latter's language is an Indian one related to Hindi, while the former's is related to Celtic (Gaelic). The Gypsies call themselves "Rom" and the Travelers "Pixies," which means "Picts." One of my Norwegian relatives, Jakob Anderson, was Jewish. His son, Otto, married my mother's aunt Josie. His name in Norway was Jakob Brekke, but that name was probably just taken from some town where he was born. Jerry
n/a	Hello -- Can someone elaborate, please, on the "Kvaan descent?" I have not heard of this, but the whole "slanty-eyed" thing is VERY intriguing to me! I've tried googling "kvaan" but to no avail.
Borge	It should be written "Kvæn" or "Kvaen". Here is a link to an article about the Sami law in English. [url="http://www.brandonu.ca/Library/CJNS/9.1/Steinlien.pdf"]Sami law[/url]
Neil Tangen	This is all very fascinating. I looked for several days before I found this cite, which is discussing my very questions. I am 7/8 Norwegian [1/16 German & 1/16 English]. My dad was full Norwegian and my mother is ¾. I have Vladres ancestry on both sides: my dad’s paternal grandmother and maternal grandmother and my mother’s paternal grandmother are all Valdres. The rest are more near Oslo I think. I am the lightest one in either side of the family, especially on my dad’s. I am also the only one with red-blond hair and very blue eyes. My brother’s hair is darker with a reddish tint and his eyes more hazel. My beard is red, not deep red. Our sister has dark hair and is darker complected, with nearly brownish eyes. Both parent had blue eyes. However, my dad’s mother had black hair & brown eyes. My dad mother was very dark, as is one of his brothers. Of five boys, all are darker than I am. My mother once told me that my dad’s grandmother looked like an old Indian Woman. Since my mother grew up on a reservation in North Dakota, she is not a stranger to Native Americans. Anyway, I have always wondered if my dad’s mother was Lapp [Saami]. I have not been able to find any information on the frequency of Saami heritage in Valdres. Most of us are descended form the German tribes that pushed the Saami north. I would imagine that some Saami ancestry in Norwegians is not uncommon. It would seem that the dark Norwegian’s are more likely Saami than resulting from women carried off by the Vikings. Those boats only held so many people. Can anyone tell me if there were Saami in Valdres. If so, how does one determine that?
Borge	I don't know if there are many Lapp people in Valdres, but I know the main Lapp population is living in the northern pats of Norway, Sweden and Finland. I have met many persons of Lapp descent, and many of them are not very dark. Also I think that the assumption of all Norwegians being blond in a historic perspective is stereotype. The majority may have been blond, but there are several examples from the historic sources revealing that Norwegians in old ages could be quite dark without there being any specific reason.
Neil Tangen	Yes, however, are not the modern Lapps part Germanic these days. Likewise, the German tribes came in and pushed the Lapps north as long as 2,0000 years ago; so, it would seem that dark Norwegians in the center of Norway might be the result of that interplay. It seems there are more dark Norwegians than dark Swedes. Neil Tangen
Neil Tangen	I have directed my query to the Saami Council. NRT
ninakarls	It's interesting that nobody has brought up the "tater" population in this discussion. In Valdres, a lappish origin would be rare. The Norwegian "taters" who claim to be of Romani descent (gypsy) would be rather common. A mixed marriage might well be a reason to emigrate, as these people were "nomads", (though not like the sami with their reindeer herds) and not very popular in the farming communities (regarded the same way as "tinkers" in Great Britain). I've seen pictures of old women of this ethnisity who definitely have similar traits with the native American population, though not all of them are as dark as Gypsies or Indians.
debbie jacobsen	Yes, there are many non-fairskinned and non blonde Norwegians. And as these many replies indicate, there are a variety of reasons for this. Regarding the Lapplanders or Samer, they are a Mongol or Mongolian race - I'm certain that all children in the United States learned about the people from northeast Asia who traveled across the to Alaska and south into what is the US today - the early ancestors of the Native American / American Indian population. And so yes, it stands to reason that Lapps/Samer share physical characteristics with Native Americans. And then as someone else mentioned there are "tater." Another name for tater is "sigøyner." Tater or Sigøyner is the Norwegian word for gypsy. I was always told that they originally came from India, and through a hundred years of traveling have moved through Europe. At some point they temporarily settled in eastern Europe, in Romania, Turkey, etc.. Eventually, the sigøyners in Norway seemed to end-up largely between Arendal and Lista. On the peninsula Lista, the gypies, who were there called "fante" lived in a colony of bungalows and shacks called "Hollywood." They went door to door and sharpened knives, etc. I do, by the way, think there is a connection between the tater, sigøyner, fanter of Norway and the "Tinkers" of Ireland. For further information, there is a book by Thor Gotaas, who has a lot of knowledge on the subject. Because these gypies were a sub-culture, intermarriage between Norwegians and the Gypies was not common. Are your Dark Norwegian ancestors from the coastline? My father, for example had ruddy dark skin, black hair and hazel eyes. His father's skin was olive and his eyes were dark brown. On my mother's side, there are many people with brown eyes and light brown hair or even red hair. Some of them have very white skin both with and without freckles (they burn easilty) and others are light, but not white (they tan). These families have all been on the coastline for 400 + years. In addition to the expected sailing and trading and fishing, there was boat building. I know that in my family, there were young men who left Norway to build boats in Holland in the 1600s. It was not a suprise when they returned home to Norway with Dutch wives. If you dig a little deeper and think about where in Norway these ancestors lived, you'll probably be able to figure out where the "darkness" came from.
das	I'm new @ this. Great post Debbie. Perhaps if I put some of my family info out here you could tell me whether or not they may qualify to be Sami / Gypsi, or not. Perhaps just good old Norske. My mother was called a "black norwegian". Brunette hair with dark brown eyes and white skinned with a hint of freckles. Her father, my grandfather, was the same. She had sibs that were red haired with sky blue eyes as was my grandmother. My grandfathers people were from Lyster / Luster Sogn og fjordane. I think this area is north of Bergen but I'm not sure. Is this near the coast or subject to coastal ventures? Oh ya, My GG grandfathers name was Lars Larson Hengesteg if that helps. Thanks, David
kaare n	One Lars Larson Hengstrød* *means it is not sure of the name on the place, but it is in Nøtterø,it is south of Oslo http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste_e.aspx?ft=1865&knr=0722&kenr=003&bnr=0243&lnr=00 In census 1865 it is twenty Lars Lar%%%% Luster/lyster. Any bitrth year? Yes sogn og fjordane is nort of Bergen [url="http://www.gulesider.no/gsi/map.do?n=&mode=&cb=cz&c=s&v=&bkode=&drill=&showCompanies=false&firma=&clickX=157&clickY=266&msa=m1&x=17.45&y=64.55&id=a_7.4581494_61.444824_LUSTER%3Cbr%3ELuster+kommune&startId=&finishId=&spraak=1&oldZoom=1"]Click to see the map[/url]
das	Thank you for all the help and your efforts. My original intent was to try and determine the "Dark" norwegian traits that are sometimes exhibited in my family. I was wondering if the geographical location of the farms / farm names might tell us something about the people there. As I stated in my original post my Mother said that she was called a "black Norwegian". Her brunette hair and dark brown eyes have been passed to two of my brothers and to one of my sons. No unusal physical traits,squattiness,etc...Actually the exact opposite. Quite striking features. My son David (the dark one) has been used in rock videos, commercials and photo ads. My son Jurgen is the fair haired having blonde hair and my daughter Kirsten is blonde as well ( you can see David & Jurgen on my web site under"instructors"). Since you asked about birth date and other info that I might have on Lars Larson Hengesteg here is what I have; Lewis L. Lewison (my G grandfather) born August 19th 1850 in Lyster, Sogn(Luster church records). Lewis L. Lewison was most likely Lars Larsen in Norway. Baptized Lars Larsen Hengesteg, son of Lars Larsen Hengesteg and wife, Gjertrud Henricksdatter, Sept. 22,1850. Lyster is the old way to spell Luster, Sogn og Fjordane. Lars Oyane's Gards og Attesoge for Luster Kommune finds these persons living on the Hengesteg farm in Luster. Lars Larsson Hengesteg born 1823 Wife -Gjertrude Henricksdatter Sandvik born Dec. 17 1822 Lars and Gjertrude lived @ Hengesteg until their emigration to USA in 1861 with their children which one of them was Lars Larson born Sept. 22 1850. They changed their names to Lewis and Gertrude Lewison as did Lars (their son) to Lewis L. Lewison. Lewis L. Lewison Married (in the USA) Anna Rasmusdatter. Daughter to Rasmus and Kirsti Boyum. Sorry I don't know how to use the correct punctuation. The "O" in Boyum has a slash through it. That brings me to another topic... What kind of name is Boyum? Doesn't sound Norwegian. Thank you for your ear and any help.
kaare n	Bøyum is maybe Norwegian Here is a place calle Bøyum. [url="http://www.gulesider.no/gsi/map.do?n=&mode=&cb=cz&c=s&drill=&showCompanies=false&firma=&bkode=&v=&msa=m1&x=6.7567987&y=61.437065&id=a_6.756799_61.437065_B%D8YUM%3Cbr%3EAurland+kommune&startId=&finishId=&spraak=1&oldZoom=2&zoom1.x=12&zoom1.y=13"]Click to see the map[/url] It is many people to day, that has this surname
das	Kaare , Thank you so very much for the maps and your time. I copied the maps and sent them to mom. I was wondering if Boyum and Hengesteg have liliteral translations for something or someone.
kaare n	Bøyum is from old Norwegin. I will find the meaning later. Just some links http://www.sognafoto.no/bilde.asp?key=3044 http://www.sognafoto.no/bilde.asp?key=3495 http://www.sognafoto.no/bilde.asp?key=3045 http://www.fjordinfo.no/fjaerland/boyum.html http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/nrk_sogn_og_fjordane/fylkesleksikon/2806775.html http://www.boyum.org/genealogy/d0001/g0000037.shtml http://www.boyum.org/narratives/firstgen.shtml Found one old posting Name: Viggo M. Fosse vimfosse@online.no <vimfosse@online.no> Website: Referred by: Just Surfed On In! From: Bergen, Norway Time: 1997-07-29 17:08:00 Comments: My current research is focused on tracing descendants of relatives who emigrated from Vik & Balestrand in Sogn, Norway. The Vik emigrants were associated with farms/surnames such as: DALE/DAHLE, NESE/NESS/NESETH/NASETH, HALSETH, AASE, FRETHEIM/FRETTEM, HAUGLUM/HOUGLUM/HOLUM, VALSVIK/WALSWICK, ALREK/ALRICK, RØYRVIK, WANGE, TENNEFOSS, NESSE, SETANE/SATHE, VANGSNES/WANGSNESS etc. The Balestarnd emigrants were associated with farms/surnames such as: DALE/DAHLE, FARNES, MEEL, SKRENES, TORSNES, BØYUM, etc. I look forward to be hearing from anyone with relations to, and info on, the above surnames. http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gskw=Boyum&ti=3&ti.si=3&rank=0&hc=25&gss=mb&db=mb&p=localities.scan-balt.norway&application=public&filter=0&utype=Admin&mbtitle=Norway+Category Kåre
das	Thank you Kaare! Wonderful pictures. From maps it looks like the Boyum farm and the Hengesteg farm weren't that far apart. I know from the pictures that Jan sent that Hengesteg is on the Sogn Fjord. From your photos it looks as though Boyum is situated over the mountain. I 'm wondering if these families might have known each other prior to coming to U.S.A. This is where they are listed as meeting and marrying.
jwiborg	Hi, the distance between Bøyum farm in Aurland, and Hengesteg farm in Luster is 78km (48 miles). It will take you 1hr and 15 minutes today, if you take the "blue" road... [:)] [img]http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/5135/hengesteg3yc.png[/img] Jan Peter
das	Thank you Jan Peter! That route looks much easier than over the mountains. I now realize that Boyum sits @ the mouth on a branch on the Sogn Fjord. From the photos of Boyum you couldn't tell. Lots of mountains. For all of you that can use the information here is my family connection to the Boyum farm; Rasmus Anfindsen Boyum. Son of Anfind Olsen Boim and Brithe Olsdatter Boyum. Born and baptized December 23, 1814. Emigrated to Hamden township, Columbia county Wisconsin. Farmer. Died October 25,1899. Married, June 18 1848 to Kristi Larsdatter Eggum, daughter of Lars Amundsen Eggum and Anna Pedersdatter. She was baptized November 6, 1813, and died January 6, 1893. she had been married before to Hermund Endresen Huke, with whom she emigrtated in 1844 and with whom she is described further. Rasmus and Kristi had ???? children. 1. Anna 1850 (Anna Rasmusdatter Boyum) 2. Brithe 1850-1860 3. Thor - Nov. 28 1852-1880 4. Britha - Oct. 17, 1854- ? Anna married Lewis L. Lewison (formerly Lars Larson Hengesteg from Norway) in Dane county Wisconsin. And that is how I'm tied to the Boyum farm/family name. Funny I never noticed the names Eggum or Huke(farm names?) untill now. I hope that some one can use this information as I don't want this to be one sided, and you all have given so much. The least I can do is put the information out there. Maybe it will help someone. Thanks again!
Borge	This discussion is getting off track from the original subject, please continue this discussion as a new topic!