17th-18th century social strata?
Printed from: Norway Heritage Community
Topic URL: http://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4809
Printed on: 17/06/2026
Topic:
Topic author: kpeterson
Subject: 17th-18th century social strata?
Posted on: 03/10/2010 11:09:06
Message:
Good morning! I am trying to get a feel for social and economic standing when reading tax assessments and probate records and am wondering if there is any document that gives 17th and 18th century equivalents. Or is there a general current value for riksdaler/marks for the same time period?
An example is a record I read yesterday for Hordaland in 1707 of an estate that included 10 laup, as well as an annual salary of 4 riksdaler for the position of sheriff. How does this translate into present day values?
I am also trying to understand the social strata of the 17th century, and would appreciate any suggestions for articles to read that could give me an idea of what constituted farming class, merchant class and upper classes (landowners and nobility) for the same time period.
Thank you to anyone who can give me suggestions of documents to read about this!
Replies:
Reply author: Lislcat
Replied on: 04/10/2010 20:08:59
Message:
Hi,
I didn't find anything specifically for Norway, but this is for Sweden and it also compares Denmark and Norway's currency. I hope this helps, but I'm not sure it's exactly what you are looking for.
http://www.tomdahlstedt.se/oldswedish.htm
Money, denominations and payment of older days. At the bottom of the page.
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 04/10/2010 22:45:38
Message:
Hi.
Easy to stumble and break both legs with the old units of measurement, hopefully its correct.
One Riksdaler 1695 was 3,25 Kroner, Norwegian page here
The Sheriff´s salary 1707 was 4 Riksdaler (13 Kroner)
The pricecalculator is further down, see here
and tells 13 Kroner in 1707 is the value of 5617 Kroner, the inflation is 43107 percent, see further down.
One Dollar /6 kroner, not much salary, in addition he had his own farm, probably this farm paid no tax.
The occupation Lensmann / Sheriff was semi-public and the Bailiff´s asistent, from 1740 the Sheriff received a share in the taxes to the goverment and the church pluss a share in the fines.
Laup was the same as Pundslaup or Laupsmål-Laupsland , a unit for arable land, another term was Månadsmatmol (the amount of food to a man in one month) normally 1-3 Pundslaup.
One Laup in butter was 3 BismerPund (of 5,5 Kilogram pluss) ;18Kilogram (36 US Pund) in Butter.
Kåre
Reply author: Lislcat
Replied on: 04/10/2010 23:19:53
Message:
Kåre,
I was hoping you might have an answer for him.
:-)
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 05/10/2010 09:40:14
Message:
Hei Wanda,
long time since we talked.
These old words are difficult to understand in Norwegian and then translate to English.
Acc. the Matrikkel "Farm register" and value;
a "Fullgård" on 2 Laup butter paid full tax, a "Halvgaard" on 1-2 Laup butter paid half tax and a farm less than one Laup, a socalled "Ødegaard" paid no tax.
Full- means complete, Halv- means Half, Øde- Deserted, a description on farms that had been abandoned (as during the Black Plague 1349-50) but where farming where taken up again, these farms were exempt from tax in a transition period and then to pay a lower tax.
In some areas from the early 1700s one Laup butter was converted to two RiksDaler
Kåre
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 05/10/2010 11:02:25
Message:
I can try to explain the sosial strata in the 17th century in Norway for you later.
Kåre
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 05/10/2010 18:44:06
Message:
Kåre, and "Lislcat" -- absolutely brilliant!!!! Thank you so much! This is a lot to absorb and think about and yes Kåre, I would be very interested in 17th century Norwegian social strata whenever you have time.
Thanks so much and have a great evening!
Kathy
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 05/10/2010 18:59:36
Message:
quick question -- as I understand this, the 1707 sheriff's salary of 13 kroner had the "buying power" of approximately 698 Euros per month in 2009? I see now that it must have been a part-time position which is, as you pointed out, why he still had a farm.
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 05/10/2010 21:14:26
Message:
Hi.
To my knowledge the salary was for a year, it was a secondary occupation and his farm was exempt from tax.
To be a "Bonde lensmann" Farmer sheriff, was a honorable mission.
He was selected by the districts most powerful farmers, he was their Ombudsman.
He and a few other powerful men represented the district in both the celebration/tribute to a new king (all royal ceremonies was taken place on Akershus Fortress, Oslo) or in meetings with the kings men.
Kåre
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 06/10/2010 00:01:08
Message:
Hi.
The noble (Adel in Norwegian) families and how I see it.
I cant find much info from the 1700´s so I am posting from the middle age to the 1800´s
During the 400 years long union with Denmark "400 års natten" 400 years long night (ended 1814) where the king was absolute monarck most of the Norwegian aristocrat disappeared in powerty.
In 1300 there were 300 Noble families in Norway, 300 years later the number was 50.
From the Uradel, noble families who can trace their ancestry back to 1400, 7 families remained;
Bjørkøy- Austrått family, Kane, Bolt, Galtung, Benkestok, Paus and Smør, some from the upper nobilities.
In the 1600 and1700 most of the Norwegian noble families were a mix of Danish and Norwegian nobility from where most of the Norwegians were ancestors to Lady Inger of Austrått and her husband Niels Henriksen Gyldenløve.
New noblefamilies arise, some were called "Brevadel" Brev means letter, they recieved the appointment from the king by a letter.
After the 1814 war when Norway by those days Superpowers was forced into a union with Sweden the Norwegian Constitution of Mai 17. forbade the creation of new Noble families in Norway.
Finally 1821 the Norwegain Parliament, against the kings wish, abolished the nobility by law, but was allowed to retain their privilages as long as they lived.
The farmers and working class /cottagers remains.
Kåre
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 06/10/2010 10:07:28
Message:
A short summary of a historical Norwegian Farmer as I read it.
Before the 1700 all/most farmers were Tenant farmers, most of the land was owned by the church and the noble families and the king and rich citizens of the towns after the Protestant reformation in 1517.
The Tenant farmer had legal rights as opsed to the rest of Europe.
The landownres often lived fare away, the Norwegian Tenant farmer had more freedom as long as he kept the maintenance in the contract than most Europeens.
Because of that the Norewgian farmer was an independant and good soldier.
The contract between the land owner and farmer could be inherited to the next generation, in the 1700 farmers had first right to buy the farm/land if it was for sale, along with Odelsretten and Åsetesretten the right of heirs were secured in Norway.
Kåre
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 06/10/2010 13:21:36
Message:
Thank you so much, Kåre for all this information. This is very fascinating! As I was reading this, I was thinking of what had happened over the course of history that had so radically changed the fabric of a society. It seems as if Norway differs from other European countries which still has upper classes despite revolutions and disease, and that Norway was actually more forward-thinking than other European countries by abolishing the nobility as early as 1821!
Odelsretten and Åsetesrett definitions were a great help In reading the bygdebok for farms in my family, I had noticed quite a few farms which had changed to different families, sometimes to brothers, sometimes to other neighbors, or had even been absorbed by other farms and these definitions helped me understand how it probably came about.
I have a question concerning one of my ancestors, Simen Dyressen Meen of Telemark -- he seemed to be a very significant landowner in the 1500s through his lumber trade but had also a tremendous amount of profit from property and I was always curious how he had obtained so much. Here is a quote from a website, and he also seemed to have taken over church property as well which seems highly unusual.
"Dyre eide gården Meen. Ved siden av gårdsbruket dreiv Dyre trelasthandel og sagbruk. Han ble lensmann omkring 1580. I 1575 var han kirkeverge. Sammen med to andre var han den første kirkevergen vi kjenner fra Gjerpen. 1580 overtok han gården til odel og eie. Det var da en av de største gården i distriktet og strekte seg fra Skienselva til vest i Siljandelet i Øst. Meen hadde tidligere vært klostereiendom."
I have some information on him, but he seems as if he may have been a bit "ruthless" -- he had not only the lumber trade, and a lot of property but also a lot of income from other farms, and on top of this he was the sheriff. It makes a person wonder that perhaps he manipulated teh system to his advantage!
Thank you again for the help
Kathy
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 06/10/2010 17:25:20
Message:
Hi, you are welcome.
I can´t find any evidences that Simen Dyresen was ruthless.
Translation:
Dyre owned the farm Meen. In addition to the farm he ran a lumber trade and a saw mill. He was Lensmann (Sheriff) from about 1580. In 1575 he was church guardian. With two others ( Jørgen Pedersen Kier/Kjær and Arne Andersen Thofte) he was the first church guardian we know about from Gjerpen.
1580 he takes over Meen which was his inheritance.
Meen was one of the districts largest farms from the Skiensriver at Skien town to the eastern border of Siljan in west.
Earlier Meen belonged to the Monastery (Gimsøy Monastery)
Dyre (Tiøstelsen) Meen was church guardian in Gjerpen church build about 1150.
Gimsøy was a Benedict monastery for nuns established about 1150, after the Reformation Gimsøy (now as the kings property) was a administration centre for mining in Telemark.
Kåre
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 06/10/2010 20:37:52
Message:
Oh, no I did not really mean that he was ruthless, that was a poor choice of word on my part! Perhaps I should have said that he seemed to have a lot in comparison to his neighbors at the time, and even former church property, and one wonders about such things.
The Gjerpen church is a really beautiful building and thank you for bringing it to my attention!
I found this in wikipedia about Gimsøy monastery: "It was founded by Dag Eilivsson, probably in the second quarter of the 12th century, and his daughter Baugeid was the first abbess. The abbey was well positioned on the navigable river on the way to Skien, and was comfortably endowed with estates. By about 1500, however, the premises had been mortgaged, although the nuns continued to live there, and were permitted to stay in residence after the dissolution of the nunnery during the Reformation. The buildings burnt to the ground in 1546, and the site was cleared, leaving no visible traces." Simen Dyresen probably saw that he could acquire the mortgaged monastery, especially as it had already burned.
From the time that it was "comfortably endowed with estates" until it was sold was only 200 years, and even though it was also used to make silver coins from 1543-1546 when it burned to the ground, it seems as if it was mismanaged. The information I found online seems to indicate that it was once a very wealthy monastery with a lot of property and other churches in Bamble, so one wonders what happened.
Very interesting information and all these pieces together are starting to make a picture!
Thank you again
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 06/10/2010 23:32:45
Message:
That is correct, it was the GimsøyDaler that was prodused there, only 15 of them exist today, an expenciv treat for collecters.
A bit off the record, but since Dag Eilivsson was mentioned.
Dag Eilivsson, the kings Lenderman and Vidkun Johnsson from the Bjarkøy manor was the last men to leave King Magus Berføtt Olavsson when he was ambushed and fall in Ireland 1103.
They brought the king´s sword "Legbit" and his Banner/Flag back to the ships.
Legbit´s handle was made of a Walrus tooth wrapped with gold threads.
Magnus was dressed in a red silk jersey embroidered a golden lion on the back, toda Norway´s coat of arms.
Dag Elivsson traveled as crusader with young Sigurd to the holy land from 1108-1111.
His son and Baugeids brother Gregorius Dagsson, the man with the golden helmet, one of the most powerfull Lendermen in Norway and King Inge I "Krokrygg" Haraldsson´s army cheif was killed in a battle by an arrow shot on the ice at "Ranrike", todays Kungelv at Udevalla, Sweden Jan 7. 1161 and buried at Gimsøy monastery.
Kåre
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 07/10/2010 08:44:52
Message:
This is really interesting, particularly that the coat of arms of Norway was from Magnus' jersey. Does "Legbit" still exist someplace? The more I read about Gimsøy monastery, the more interesting it is! It seems as if everything is becoming more interconnected! Thank you for all this information.
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 07/10/2010 11:05:31
Message:
I wish Legbit still existed, perhaps one day it pops up from a grave.
False or true?
I have no way to examine this information, some of it is not online.
I wonder if Legbitt might have been a wronspelling for Kvernbitt (Bit-Bitt means bite, leg is leg and kvern is Millstone).
Kvernbitt was owned by young Håkon Adelstensfostre Haraldsson 920-61 (Håkon was fosterson to king Adelsten of England), as king known as Håkon the Good.
Kverbitt was the kings present to young Håkon when he returned home to Norway.
Kverbitt was with him when he died of blood loos after the battle of Fitjar 861 and died in his recidecce.
The Saga tells king Adelsten loved prince Håkon as his own son and Kverbitt, a Damask sword with golden handle, was the best sword made in England.
Next time I read about Kvernbitt is 1016 at the battle of Nesjar, Vestfold county, where Olav Haraldsson beat earl Svein Håkonsson and became king of Norway.
Olav gave Kvernbitt to the man who had been most important for the outcome of the battle, Brynjolv Ulvade, perhaps an ancestor to Dag Eilivsson who probably have owned Kverbitt.
The I came across the name Kvernbitt in a document from April 23. 1606, in a dispute over an inheritance in the Grevling family about a trophy weapon without mentioning what kind of weapon, only as Kvernbitt.
Kvernbitt/Legbitt would have been the Crown jewell (s) of Norway if it was found.
Kåre
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 07/10/2010 16:38:46
Message:
Hi, are you an ancestor to Simen Dyresen Meen?
I have more info to share with you about him.
Kåre
Reply author: Lislcat
Replied on: 07/10/2010 17:14:05
Message:
Hi Kåre,
Yes, she is. She mentioned it earlier in the topic, here.
"I have a question concerning one of my ancestors, Simen Dyressen Meen of Telemark -- he seemed to be a very significant landowner in the 1500s through his lumber trade but had also a tremendous amount of profit from property and I was always curious how he had obtained so much. Here is a quote from a website, and he also seemed to have taken over church property as well which seems highly unusual."
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 07/10/2010 20:11:34
Message:
Hei Wanda, I didn´t notice that, takk skal du ha.
Is it the Søderled branch of this family you are related to? Simen Dyresens daughter Marthe Simensdatter married to Rasmus Olsen Linna at Kragerø?
Difficult to know how he became so rich, perhaps he was a good businessman, perhaps he lended money to others with security/pledge in their farms.
Perhaps the bygdbok from Gjerpen has an answers to that.
Found more info here
It was not uncommon for wealthy farmers to own the local church which ment great prestige.
Sometimes churches were sold on auction.
It was the the communities citizen´s responsebility to maintain the church.
I believe to remember it was not until the late 1800s before the Goverment took over the resposibility for the churches in Norway.
Kåre
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 07/10/2010 22:34:32
Message:
Gard Strøm is working with a description of the farms (blue page) and the cotters farms (yellow page) in Gjerpen that is not complete yet including Meen, see alphabetical 2. column from left.
Kåre
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 08/10/2010 08:39:26
Message:
WOW, Kåre, you posted some very interesting things last night!
Yes, I do seem to be a descendant of Simen Dyressen Meen (and therefore all his ancestors which can be confirmed) through his daughter Marthe Simensdatter. The descendancy is through her daughter Kirsten/Kjersten Rasmusdatter married to Christen Danielsen. I use the words "seem to be decended" because I am a person who needs to see documents (like the scans) or in books before I come to a conclusion, and even then I STILL try to find more supporting information. I am still working from the late 1700s and going back, finding the scans in digitalarkivet etc to verify information.
I know that there is a lot of false information out there, I found this in doing my mother's side of the family in England and it was very frustrating at first. Fortunately Ancestry started putting the original scans of documents online for its members and it made it a lot easier to confirm information, but unfortunately there have been bad transcriptions which I found in Wisconsin. I think that some people doing research in Norway sometimes want to find any link so that they can say "HA! I knew I was descended from Viking Kings!" and so they put a lot of false connections together to make this assumption.
I just ordered some Bamble bygdebok scans from the University of North Dakota so I am waiting for those to arrive this month and hopefully I can verify things a bit more. My grandmother said that her Telemark side of the family had a lot of property and money a long time ago; we thought she was joking, but maybe her mother knew stories about Simen Dyressen from HER mother. Who knows? Right now I am going one by one starting with my gg-grandparents to confirm parentage, farms, locations. I am always looking for source materials, for academic resources, etc. as I cannot get to a library at this time. It is a long process but so far I have been able to confirm almost everything with actual documents, which is good news for me.
If you have confirmed information on Marthe Simensdatter's descendants, I would be very glad to see them!!
:-( It is sad that this famous sword disappeared and I suppose that people have been wondering about this for years, and especially wondering what the Grevling family did with it!! You brought up an interesting point though: was the sword a Damascene blade (i.e. it was from Syria), or was it "damascened" (i.e. layered with iron for strength). If it was a Damascene blade, it is incredible to think of the journey it made to come into the hands of a Norseman! Through trade with Arabs and travel, only to wind up in the far north and then fought over in a family in the 17th century. It is most likely the sword was from Damascus considering the trade -- I am not sure that the damascene process was known in England as early as the 10th century. But to think of it coming all that way, passing from hand to hand perhaps sold, perhaps taken from someone in a battle is really fascinating!
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 08/10/2010 09:17:39
Message:
one quick question concerning the Meen descendants: was the name of Kirsten Rasmusdatter (mentioned above) Christen Danielsen or Christen Jensen? I have both names in my records and this one thing I am unsure of.
Thank you!
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 08/10/2010 12:00:22
Message:
Me to, its a lot of rubbish online, familytrees referring to verifiable sources appears to be honest.
The Damaskus sword´s origin was Middle east, here includes info in English
Kirsten Rasmusdatter Linna married 1666 in Bamble Christian Jensen Fostveit ab 1626-1722 acc. this family tree from Søndeled (English translation ), almost halfway down a little past the two images, start with;
Lars Christensen sine foreldre (parents) er Christen Jensen Fostveit f (born) ca 1626......
Kåre
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 08/10/2010 12:42:31
Message:
Here is how Gard Strøm´s work with the old farms in Gjerpen looks at farm Tofte/Tufte and where both Dyre Tiøstelsen and Simen Dyresen are mentioned.
Dyre as church guardian, the other guardian Arne Andersen Toftes´s son Peder Tofte owned the value of 2 Hides in Foss Lille.
(Simen Dyresen Meen hadde pant in disse 2 huder)
Simen Dyresen Meen owned mortages in these two hides, see more than half way down here
Kåre
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 08/10/2010 13:11:24
Message:
ok, this makes more sense to me (about Christian Danielsen being the wrong choice). I had been given the Danielsen connection by someone else and it did not seem accurate, so this confirms that my research was correct (sometimes I should just go with my "sixth sense" when I feel something is incorrect!)
Thank you for the very useful links, also for the photos of the sword!
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 08/10/2010 14:00:04
Message:
Hi, you are welcome.
It´s always good to confirm that the "sixth sense" work.
I bring up some more information for you later today regarding Meen.
Meen belonged to Gimsøy monastery 1480.
Kåre
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 08/10/2010 18:11:25
Message:
Gjerpen 1612, tax register for Bratsberg (Telemark).
Simen Meen (Simenn Mehn) was a rich farmer.
He owned 42 farms or part of, some outside the municipality as Bredvik in Bamble, Jernes (Jarnes) in Efteløt sub parish in Sandsvær, Landsverk in Øvre Sandsvær, Holden in Holla, Nøreberg in Tønsberg, Hoppestad at Skien, Thudall u. Greffgiord, must be Grevjord in Tuddal in Hjartdal .
Meen was his inherit from his parents after Odelsloven mentioned in a former posting, see top page for Gjerpen parish and Simen Mens godzs (Simen Meens properties) here
Further down:
Total sum of the above:
41 and a half Hide and 3 Skin, 6 barrels, 8 Skippund and 3 Lispund of grain.
Hence a 4. part to the "Kong Majst" (his Majesty the king) which was 10 Hides and 4 1/4 Skin, one and a half barrel, 3 Skippund and 1/2-1/4 Lispund of grain and 2 Laup of Butter, total value in money;
13 and a half Daler, 22 Shilling and 2 and a half Penning.
The king was Christian 4
Kåre
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 08/10/2010 22:16:59
Message:
Good heavens! 42 farms (whole or in part) -- he must have been a busy person, in addition to his lumber business! Not to mention well-to-do, but that unfortunately it disappeared within a few generations the way that inheritances do.
The Alminnelige Pengeskatten for 1612 is a great resource, also the link for Christian IV -- I do not know as much as I should about the political history of Norway and see that I must educate myself! The joining of Denmark and Norway would have been within the lifetime of Simen and it would have made a major impact on his life, I am sure.
Have a good weekend and thank you for all the information!
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 08/10/2010 22:40:14
Message:
He was a very wealty man, Simen Meen.
I put in a wrong link, sorry, he owned 42 farms or in part according the 1624 census for taxes for Gjerpen, see here
Still more inf to come.
Have a good weekend.
Kåre
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 09/10/2010 10:18:50
Message:
Simen Meen (Simen Mhenn) paid "Tiende" a biblic tax to the church in 1623-24 and 33, Tiende means 1/10 of the income, the tax was mesured in "tn" (tønne) barrels of grain, see alphabetical here
One barrel was 139 Liter or 36,58 Gallon.
Meen (Meen comes of the norse word Mær -Mjor and means narrow) belonged to Gimsøy monastery mid. June 1480 acc this document written on paper kept in the State archives.
If the two brothers are Simens ancestors is impossible to tell, you must wait for Gard Støm´s description.
Translation;
Three priests, the civil servant in Skien and 19 "Lagrettemenn" Local judges in a case between Reidar Gunleiksen, priest in Skien and Ombudsman for the Abbess on Gimsøy, Mrs Birgitte on the one hand and the brothers Ulfhedin and Reidar Guttormsen on the other hand regarding some lakes in the eastern district which after the testemony from the local judges belonged to the monastery´s farm Meen, see here
Kåre
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 11/10/2010 09:09:43
Message:
Hej Kåre!
As I understand the translation above, Ulfhedin and Reidar Guttormsen said that the lakes belonged to them, and the representative for Gimsøy Sira Gunleiksen said they belonged to the monastery. The three priests, the civil servant and the 19 Lagrettemenn decided that the lakes belonged to the monastery. Correct?
The family I have from Simen Dyressen is as follows:
Simen Dyressen 1580-1645
Father Dyre TJØSTELSEN born about 1556, died about 1612. Married to Unknown woman
Father Tjøstel DYRESEN Meen born about 1530 died after 1558, married to (1) Liv SOLVESDATTER born about 1534 died about 1558
This also brings up an interesting point: Liv SOLVESDATTER (who was a descendant of Solve ORMARSSON Hem and Margreta BJØRNSDATTER Lindheim) had a family history of property for several generations. Because of this, I think that Liv would have also married a person of property and money which probably meant that Tjøstel DYRESEN had both of those.
Because the Abbey burned in 1546 and was cleared, it seems probable that either Tjøstel DYRESEN or his father probably thought it was a good investment and obtained the monastery property that way using the money they made from their lumber business to do it, all of this led to Simen Dyressen's wealth.
It will be interesting to know more about the history of the Meen property when it becomes available through Gard Støm.
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 11/10/2010 11:06:34
Message:
Some more information on Gimsøy Kloster, an important and influential institution for that area of Telemark both in terms of religion and trade from the 12th to 16th centuries.
Gimsøy kloster and Aftenposeten article on Gimsøy kloster
(Information summarized below is from Wikipedia, plus my own comments.)
As Kåre already mentioned in a previous posting, the Gimsøy Kloster was most likely created by Dag Eilivsson after returning from the Crusades with Sigurd Jorsalfare. It was built on Dag Eilivsson’s property of Gimsøy which was originally used for pasturing goats. The monastery was built in stone by British stone masons and the first nuns came from England; their presence probably predated the Oslo Nonneseter and Trondheim Bakke monasteries. The daughter of Dag Eilivsson was an abbess but probably not the first; there is only sparse information from this time.
Because the monastery was well-located and on significant travel and trade routes, the abbey became very wealthy, owning property and assets which could have come from not only purchasing of property and from financial activities, but also from legacies of people who either left property or other assets to the monastery upon their death, or who entered the monastery/cloister and gave all their worldly possessions as dower legacies to the monastery.
The monastery was closed after the Reformation of 1537 at which time King Christian III confiscated church property, merged it with other land belonging to the Crown, and the monastery was managed by sheriffs appointed by the Danish-Norwegian monarchy, and which included the family of Simen Dyressen.
There was a gradual decline in this monastery in the 1500s, especially after King Christian II had already made the major church properties into secular fiefs; it seems that the King also gave estates to men who paid an annual fee despite the fact that people in Norway did not like this idea. It is highly likely that the Meen family paid an annual fee to the King to obtain the monastery lands, particularly after the monastery burned.
When silver and copper were found in Upper Telemark as well as iron ore in Gjerpen in the 1500s, the King made the decision to turn the monastery into a place of coin production. For several years, the Gimsøy coins which were inscribed with the Norwegian lion were made here but a fire destroyed the buildings in 1546, leaving only rubble; even the old church burned as well. As people moved into the area, constructing manor houses and other buildings, and because of the silver, copper and iron ore mining in the area which led to industrial development, most traces of the monastery are gone. However, due to the recent rezoning of this area, there was an archaeological expedition on the former monastery grounds in 2007 that was looking for traces of the monastery, the crypt of the old church, old tombs, and other historical information.
The local pronunciation is still Gjemsø, even though spelling has changed to Gimsøy.
Translated from the Aftenposten article: “Gimsøy monastery had large properties in Telemark and around Oslo Fjord, and grew to become such a major trading partner and competitor to Skien that the Danish king in 1371 had to intervene and limit the monastery's trading for its own use. Skien had in fact been ‘byprivilegier’ in 1358, and citizens would have [had] a monopoly on trading "We do not know how big the monastery was, but it had at least 12 nuns, possibly more, as well as an abbess, probably novices, workers, etc. [With the] monastery discovered, the area where it is [located is] to be protected and hopefully be a future attraction, in addition to providing new knowledge about the history.”
This book looks interesting for those people who can read Norwegian!
Bergan, Halvor: Drøm og virkelighet bak klosterets murer, Gimsøy nonnekloster 1110-1540, Norgesforlaget 2002. (“Dream and reality behind the monastery walls. Gimsøy convent 1110 - 1540”) from book on Gimsøy nonnekloster
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 11/10/2010 11:56:43
Message:
Hi,
you are right about the disagreement concerning the lakes, they belonged to Meen under Gimsøy monastery.
It must have been seen as an important issue, perhaps because the monastery was involved.
19 "Lagrettemenn" Local judges were involved, normally 3-5 "Lagrettemenn" judged in cases like this.
The Hem and Lindheim genealogy comes here, page 2-3-4 and 5, it also involve my Lindheim family from Sauherad.
Kåre
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 11/10/2010 12:52:09
Message:
Sigurd Jorsalfare Magussson was very young, 18, when he went as crusader to the holy land with 60 Longship, he was son of Magnus Berføtt Olavsson who fall in Ireland 1103 with Dag Eilivsson by his side.
Perhaps Dag was guardian for the youg king?
1111 the Norwegian fleet were invited by the Emporer of Istanbul/Constantinople to visit him, he was well informed about the many achivements they had done , the Golden gate "Gullvarta" was opened for them, the streets was decorated with gold, jewels and expencive clothes.
Riding in on horses Sigurd told his men " Do not look surprised over all the wealt, pretend that you are used to it"
Many of his men tok service in the Emporers guard, the viking guard called "Væringhæren" or "Den øksebørende Brigade" The ax-bearing Brigade on total 5000 men lived in barracks outside the city, only 1000 were allowed to be inside the citywalls at the same time.
The Viking army served as guardsmen for the Emporers for ab. 300 years.
The Saga written in the early 1200´s tells Sigurd also visited an arena for horse races named Hippodromen in Constantinopel which still exist.
King Olav Haraldsson´s (remember Kvernbitt) sword "Neite", norse Hneitir which he used in the battle of Stiklestad 1030 when he fall hang over the altar in the vikings church "Olavskirken" Olav´s church, in Constantinopel.
Gimsøy was probaly located where the former Union paper mill in Skien is located.
Archaeologists will start exavation in that area.
Kåre
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 11/10/2010 13:12:36
Message:
Hello again -- I had to smile because I read your posting on Saksabjørn and it never occurred to me that it was connected to you! There is so much to sort through and understand, and it is fascinating to see how everything is connected, all pieces of an historical puzzle.
It will take me some time to read all of your research and information on the Hem and Lindheim people.
I have a problem with the family of Liv SOLVESDATTER because it seems as if there are people missing.
As I posted above, Tjøstel DYRESEN Meen was married to (1) Liv SOLVESDATTER born about 1534 died about 1558. She is descended from Solve Ormarsson Hem and Maritte Bjørnsdatter Lindheim through their son Anund SOLVESSON Hem. However, I have questions about the dates because it seems that there are gaps in information.
These are the names and dates I have:
Solve ORMARSSEN Hem 1350-1442 married to Margreta BJØRNSDATTER Lindheim 1350/59 -- ?
Anund SOLVESEN Hem 1387-1477 married to ? TORSDATTER Linderygg unknown birth and death dates
Solve ANUNDSEN born ? 1420 married to (?) Magnhilde Amundsdatter
(here is where there seems to be people missing)
Liv SOLVESDATTER Hem born around 1534 and died 1558
So far, every online source has shown that Solve ANUNDSEN was Liv's father even with the problems for the dates, but the Solve Anundsen born about 1420 could not be Liv's father if (and this is still something I need to confirm) she was really born in 1534. Is it possible that you have any information about the real father of Liv SOLVESDATTER? The same online sources all say that Liv is descended from Solve ORMARSEN but the dates are incorrect.
Thank you!
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 11/10/2010 13:42:04
Message:
Hi, its a small world.
A laugh prolongs life.
I think I have the solution, I will look into it later today for more information .
Liv was probably daughter to Solve Ormarsson´s son Solve Solvesson mentiond 1449, he and a brother Thorleif named after his mothers father Thorleif Saksabjørnsson Lindheim settled down in Gjerpen.
Kåre
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 11/10/2010 14:38:43
Message:
yes it is a small world and keeps getting smaller! I keep finding these amazing coincidences in my research, sometimes it is even bizarre to find how close the people I know (even friends in different parts of the world) are connected to me. This is what is fun about genealogy -- you never know what you will find.
Thank you for looking for this !!
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 11/10/2010 17:07:51
Message:
It is a small wold,
seems like we have the same forefather, Thorbjørn Saxabjørnsson Lindheim, Lindheim is probaly the oldest farm in Sauherad. Lindheim means Sheltered home.
His father Saxabjørn was the first man with that name known in Norway we knows about, made of the two names Saxa and Bjørn (Bear)
Solve Ormarsson and Margrethe Bjørnsdatter Lindheim got three sons, Agmund (inherit Hem), Solve and Thorleif mentioned in a document Sept. 9. 1448 when he states a sale for his mother.
Later Solve settled down on Hanes in Skien.
His brother Thorleif (Thorlefuer Solueson) is mentioned in a document from Feb. 25. 1439 and Oct. 28. 1448.
Feb. 25. 1439 Mattis Torgeirsson from Holm in Gjerpen (a distant familymember to the Hem family) on bahalf of the farmers negosiated with Sigrid Niculasdatter Brunla when the uprisingleader Halvard Gråtopp and his men raided Brunla Manor and reached Oslo before they were stopped 1438.
Solve (Salve) Solvesen and his son Thorleif Solve (Salve)sson both participated in the uprising and where judged to pay compesation to Sigrid Niculasdatter Galle and her son in-law Hartvig Krummedige, see the document here.
Kåre
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 11/10/2010 18:10:54
Message:
Correction, one generation wrong, sorry:
I could not get it to fit.
Live Solvesdatterer who married Tjøstel (Dyresen) Meen was daughter to Solve Agmnudsson Hem who settled down on Lofts-Borge in Skien and Magnild Aamundsdatter, his father was Agmund Solvesson Hem (Salve Salvesson´s older brother) Agmund inherit Hem, married to a daugter to Tord Linderygg (Lønnerygg) in Bamble.
It must have been an extra beautiful Loft, todays Stabbur (Storehouse for food, grain,furn, meat, fish etc), on Borge since the farm was named Lofts-Borge.
Kåre
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 11/10/2010 20:06:39
Message:
Hi
Normally noblefamilies married in noblefamilies, farmers children to peers and poor peole married poor people.
It happened a few times that ordinary people were nobled by the king if they had shown great curage formulas other events that the king appreciated extra.
The probate register Mai. 21. 1558 on Borge for Solve Borge b. ab. 1500 and Magnhild Amundsdatter:
A Summary:
Severin Ros, Mayor in Skien, a citzen fron the same plece, the Sheriff on Høfund and three other men announces that they had witnessed the probate after Solve Borge (in Gjerpen) and his wife Magnhild Anundsdatter, where they son Anund Solvesson and the 4. daughters Lif (Live) Aase, Thorbjørg and Thora Solvesdøtre got shares the farms in Gjerpen, Sandsvær and Slemdal (Siljan)
The farms in Sansvær were Mørk, Nes and Lansdsverk.
Nes and Landsverk was their mother Magnhild´s inheritance
A copy of the document written on parchment kept in Deichmanske bibliotek (library)
Kåre
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 11/10/2010 21:07:31
Message:
Thank you for all this information, Kåre, it is greatly appreciated and it represents a very important fact: that you have done a lot of research on the history of this region of Telemark :-D
Ever since I saw the name "Saxabjørn" and heard what a rare name it was, I have wanted to find out more about this person! As far as I can see it means "Bear Trap", right? and if that is the true, we have to wonder how he got the name or if it was a "nickname"? I was hoping that my "sixth sense" about this line turned out to be true and I am glad that this is so. It is just unfortunate that the name was not given to many succeeding generations. There are many Anders, Per, and Knuds, but the interesting and unique name of Saxabjørn seems to have died out after the Middle ages.
Now the difficult part is putting all of this together in charts and with biographies! But because it is also fun to see how it all comes together I will enjoy doing it., even the Ahnentafels!
Thank you again for all your help, Kåre, and have a pleasant evening! Kathy
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 11/10/2010 21:31:14
Message:
PS: Your comment above about the øksebørende Brigade of 5000 axe-wielding warriors made me laugh -- If I had been in charge of the city gates at that time, I would not have let any more than 10 inside the city walls, not 1000! To imagine 5000 warriors all with axes is incredible. To imagine 5000 warriors with axes and all drinking too much mead or ale is even worse!
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 12/10/2010 11:31:52
Message:
Hi, how is weather in Italy?
Minus 2 Celsius in eastern Norway this morning.
It was an interesting suggestion on the name Saxabjørn, who knows, "Bjørnesaks" in Norwegian Bear trap
Sax-Saks also means scissor, not suitable for a name, ScissorBear-SaxeBjørn.
Think of the ax-bearing Vikings as your ancestors, Væring, norse Væringjar means to swear an oath, The sworn army.
The favourite weapon was the battle ax, easier to handle in a close range fighting.
More Meen information from farm Fossjordet in Gjepen, thanks to Gard Strøm.
The farm was 1398 owned by Gimsøy monastery, mentioned in Bishop Eysteins "Rødebok" Farm register.
A "Kongebrev" Letter from the king from the 1590s tells that farm Skavan on Opphaugen was Simen Meen´s parents "Odelsgods" see Odelsretten.
Ab. 1590 he "Makeskiftet" exchanged farm with Kronen- The Crown (the king´s representatives) Schaven-Skavan against Ødegaarden Fossejord
In 1615 in Alexander Rabe von Pappenheims "Rødebok" for Gjerpen Simen Meen owned the value of 2 Hides in Meen.
When Simen died ab. 1650 his son Christan Simensen Augestad inherit 1 Hide and 4 1/2 Skin in Meen, Simen Meen´s two other sons, Gunder and Simen, inherits 7 1/2 Skin.
Fossjord was for many years a sub farm under Augestad, Christian cultivated both farms 1664, he settled down on N. (Lower) Grini about 1671.
Kåre
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 12/10/2010 12:26:31
Message:
I think it will be difficult to get more information regarding your Meen family until Gard Støm arrives with more information.
If you have questions, pleace contact me.
You will need time to organize all the info.
Need a big wall to put together your family-tree Kathy.
Kåre
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 13/10/2010 12:30:04
Message:
It was a very beautiful day here, about 19 C, but the weather changed about 15 minutes ago and now it looks like rain. It is supposed to rain every day for the rest of the week; perhaps we will also get snow again this winter which is very rare.
I have another thought on the origin of the name Saxabjørn (and of course we will never know anything, but it is fun to speculate on his name!) Perhaps it is our translation of a derivative of the word Saxon at the time of Charlemagne: Saksit (Finnish), Saxon, Sachsen. And then this would change the meaning of the name Saxabjørn to be something like Saxon Bjørn, or Sachse(n)bjørn. If this is a possibility, then perhaps Saxabjørn was actually of Saxon origin and had been a Saxon warrior under perhaps Ludwig of Saxony, had made his name and fortune, and gone to Norway.
I will try to make some sort of informal chart for assessing value of property etc. and pass it on as it will be easier to follow. It won't be perfect but perhaps a bit easier. It is difficult to give a true value to property of medieval times. I try to find out what a person with property assessed at 1 hide could buy at that time and give a value to it for the present day. This is always almost impossible because their needs and the value that they gave to things was different than what we consider valuable, but at least we get a general idea.
I have started making the numbered charts of ancestors -- makes it easier to follow! Putting this all together is like a giant puzzle but as I like to make order from chaos, it is actually fun to do this. All these pieces of puzzle are starting to make a very interesting picture!
The links and information you have sent are invaluable, I owe you many thanks, Kåre for all your help in this.
Have a very good afternoon!
Kathy
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 13/10/2010 19:40:08
Message:
We have a colder climate in Scandinavia, you get uesed to it.
It´s a posibility, many old norse names, modernized, exists both in Scandinavia and England avd vice versa.
The ancient language in England was Anglo Saxony.
There were many Saxe nmames in Norway in the midlegae and earlier, it still exist in Norway, mostly as a surname, but the combination Saxebjørn was very rare.
Sauherad Bygdbok tells that a branch of the Lindheim family may be descendant after the Lenderman family to Ogmund Krøkedans, I have not found any with the name Saxe in that family.
You seems to be well informed.
Apropo mead or ale.
The Emporer in Constantinople imposed restrictions on vine and beer in the Væring Brigade (Varangian guard in English)
Runic inscriptions in Hagia Sophia, Constantinople
Just a thought;
If William the Conqueror had lost at Hastings Oct. 14.1066 against king Harald of England, perhaps your language could had been a modernized edition of Anglo Saxony today.
One of the Runic names is Halfdan, a common name in Norway, the origin is Half Dane
Have a good evening.
Kåre
Reply author: kpeterson
Replied on: 19/10/2010 09:56:55
Message:
Hello Kåre,
I enjoyed seeing the runic inscriptions in Hagia Sofia and never imagined them being there -- thank you for sending them! This mosque has such an interesting history, represented by not only the runic inscriptions, but also early Christian mosaics and the early Islamic influence to the present day. Because of your posting, I have been reading about the Væring -- very interesting history to say the least!
I think that this is a very good point you are making concerning Hastings. Perhaps the Norsemen and Danes lost against the Saxons but because of Norse influence and settlement in northern France, they conquered England anyway! The evolution of the Norse in France came to influence so much in Europe but the influence of Norsemen can be seen through every country they touched which is extraordinary if we think about it, even throughout the Mediterranean.
There is a legend among the Tuareg tribe of the Sahara that lost blue-eyed Crusaders married into a nomadic African tribe. This tribe then migrated to Western Africa and it is said that this is why you find pale-skinned blue and green-eyed people to this day. Their silver work, especially the fibulae are distinctly influenced by northern Europe and look Scandinavian. Of course, this is all speculation but when one sees blue-eyed and pale-skinned people, and especially the silver jewelry it certainly makes you think that this is perhaps true. Rif Mountain Moroccan Berbers have a significant percentage of people compared to the general population with blue or green eyes, even red hair which is unusual.
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 19/10/2010 23:22:46
Message:
H Kathy,
intersting to read the myth about the Tuaregs, who knows.
I found a old document from early summer 1195 brought to Norway with a soldier who did service in emporer Alexios III of Byzantum´s Væring army.
Constantinople had changed name to Byzantium, rechanged back to Constantinople later.
The soldier was Reidar Sendemann (Reidar the Messenger) with a request from Alexios III to king Sverre asking for 1200 good soldiers, the document was sealed with the emporers golden seal, see the content of the document here
King Sverre refused the request, it was civil war in Norway, lasted from 1140-1240, Reidar Sendemann enjoyed the kings opponents and became chief in the Bagler party
After the piece treaty between the Bagler party and the Birkebeiner party in 1208 Reidars task in Norway was over, one year earlier he married Margrete Magnusdatter, father king Magnus Erlingsson, Sigurd Jorsalfare Magnusson´s ggrandaughter.
Reidar left Norway with his wife and two ships ab. 1208 to visit Jerusalem, this was 100 years after Margrete´s ggrandfathers king Sigurd and Dag Eilivsson´s 1108-1111 travel.
After been in Jerusalem Reidar returned to Constantinople to serve in the emporers guard.
Reidar Sendemann died in Constantinople 1214.
Kåre
Reply author: Lislcat
Replied on: 20/10/2010 17:26:03
Message:
Doesn't the Saga of Harald Hardrada from Heimskringla, also speak of traveling to Constantinople? That is one saga that stands out in my mind.
Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 20/10/2010 20:24:30
Message:
You are right Wanda, Harald Sigurdsson Hardråde lived a vagrant life before he became king of Norway.
Harald´s Saga is available in English in Heimskringla
His corpse was buried in a Monastery that is gone now 1066.
His unmarked grave lies under asphalt at Klostergata 47 "Monastery street 47 in Trondheim almost next to the Cathedral where his older halfbrother Olav Haraldsson "St. Olav" is buried.
Kåre
Norway Heritage Community : http://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/
© NorwayHeritage.com