Johan Pedersen Born April, 1836.

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Topic:

Topic author: janray
Subject: Johan Pedersen Born April, 1836.
Posted on: 06/08/2013 01:05:16
Message:

Hi,
I was hoping someone might have some info. on my great, great grandfather's parents please?
He was born 29th April, 1836 in either Oslo or a name starting with K and arrived in Australia in 1860, altered his name to John Pearson and was married in 1863.
I read a post on him yesterday in this forum, from last year but am unable to find it now. Edited once again as I put in the wrong date.

Thank you,

Janray.

Replies:

Reply author: AntonH
Replied on: 06/08/2013 01:32:02
Message:

Could be this one.

http://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5539&SearchTerms=johan,,pedersen,australia

Reply author: AntonH
Replied on: 06/08/2013 03:56:44
Message:

There are some online Family Trees that identify this Johan Carl as being the same person as your John Pearson. However some doubt was cast on this identification in the earlier thread. See number 10 on the link.

http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=7839&idx_id=7839&uid=ny&idx_side=-21

Reply author: janray
Replied on: 06/08/2013 05:05:30
Message:

Thank you Lyndal40.

Will keep searching.

Regards,
janray.

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 06/08/2013 09:01:36
Message:

Christiania changed name to Oslo 1925.
Does Oslo comes from written sources or from oral tradition?

Kåre

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 06/08/2013 09:08:47
Message:

Towns and municipalities starts with K;
Kristiansand, Kristiansund, Kragerø, Kongsberg, Kongsvinger, Kirkenes, Kopervik, Kolvereid.

Kåre

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 06/08/2013 10:09:38
Message:

There was no organized em. to Australia from Norway ca 1860, you had to travel via England.
Was Johan a seaman who jumped of the ship in Australia, I have read bout that a few times.

Some yeras ago I read about a company who made two trips to Australia with lumber ca 1860, I belive it was from Tønsberg town. They advertised in a few newspapers that they brought em. to Australia against payment.

Kåre

Reply author: janray
Replied on: 06/08/2013 11:21:19
Message:

Thank you Kare,

Yes, Johann was sent from Norway to the U.S. to be raised by an Aunt as he was an orphan, then later joined the U.S. Navy and came to Australia that way.

I was certain we had the correct Johann until I read Tim's post and began to wonder about the birthplace.....all other details were the same.

Many of his descendants have lived in a particular area of NSW from the 1860's until now, are a very close family and have shared an interest in the family history for many decades.

I was told that Johann wanted to trace his Danish family as he got older, however, he had almost lost the language and details and communications were very difficult in the 1800's.

Regards,
janray.

Reply author: janray
Replied on: 06/08/2013 12:18:38
Message:

Apologies,
I had the wrong birth-date in the heading........1836 makes more sense.

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 06/08/2013 12:44:19
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by janray

Apologies,
I had the wrong birth-date in the heading........1836 makes more sense.

---

Reply author: JaneC
Replied on: 07/08/2013 23:38:47
Message:

Hi Janray - What is the source for the birth date 21 March 1836 that you state in your opening query? (You've corrected a typo in the date in your first draft)
Kåre mentions it too. Hope you don't mind my asking where that comes from.

Tim in the other thread says he has a death certificate for
John Pearson in Australia (spelling of name and specific place not given)
No parents listed
Died 22 March 1913, age 76
Born in "Karagira, Norway"

In Tim's thread a candidate for John Pearson was found as:
"Andreas Johan Petersen bap. Nov. 27. 1836. Parents; Peter Hasset and Else Severine Sørensen"
(thanks to Kåre)

Kåre also asked a critical question: "Does Oslo comes from written sources or from oral tradition?"

Thanks in advance for the clarifications.

We could check out John's aunt and cousins in the USA, if you can tell us about them. They might help to confirm (or not) the tentative identification of Andreas Johan Petersen.

Reply author: janray
Replied on: 08/08/2013 08:07:17
Message:

Thank you Jane C. for your reply.

I have just received a copy of the family tree going back to 1782 in England and was particularly interested in the branch of the family from Norway which dated from John Pearson (born) 29/4/1836 - (died) 21/3/1913.

This information was gathered from the Blue Mountains Pioneer Register.

John married Martha May Alderman in 1863 and lived in the Blue Mountains. They had 8 children who reached adulthood (one of whom was my great grandmother).

The name Johan Pedersen has been passed down through the family by oral tradition, with the information that he was orphaned and sent to the U.S. when he was 8 years old, from where he came to australia in a naval ship in 1860.

I would be interested in ascertaining the names of our John's parents if it is possible but am very new at this research.

Reply author: JaneC
Replied on: 08/08/2013 09:13:27
Message:

Great! Thanks for the clarification. So John Pearson was born

29 APRIL 1836

at least that's his birth date according to a local newspaper.

1 - Did that information appear in his obituary?

2 - Where did you get the information that he was born in Oslo (you really don't want to answer that, hehe)

3 - Do you know the names of his siblings from your private family tree or another source?

4 - Do you know the name of his aunt in the USA? her maiden name? her husband's name? where they lived? Do you know if the aunt was his mother's sister or his father's? If you don't know any or some of this, just let us know, okay?

5 - You have now added the information that John went to the USA age age 8, ca 1844. Are there other details you can add? (for example, was his first-born son named Johan Carl? Children's names can be a clue, as traditional practice was to name children after grandparents). It's hard to list all the ways that various details can contribute to a search that is this tough, but do know that every little fact could help.

"The name Johan Pedersen has been passed down through the family by oral tradition." That's really helpful; these family stories of ours are often true.

I don't see contact info for you - if you're willing I'd love for you to shoot me an email. Thanks!

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 08/08/2013 10:17:36
Message:

A possible candidate:
Knud Johan Pedersen born April 29. 1836 on farm Børholmen in Gulen bap. Mai 23.
Parents; Petter Martinus Daniel Bernts Jacobsen and Magdalie Hansdatter Børholmen 20

Gulen

His parents lived in 1865, but can`t find Knud Johan.

Kåre

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 08/08/2013 11:24:13
Message:

If the details about coming to US at age 8 and by 1863 to Australia are true Johan or John might be in the US censuses of 1850 and possibly 1860....

As this might help, in Volume two 1844-1846 of Norwegian Immigrants to the United States: a Biographical Directory, 1825-1850 by Gerhard Naeseth provides an index by first name of migrants. Looking strictly for Jon, John, Johan, Johannes & Jens, patronymic Pederson, Peterson, Person, Pehrson, born in 1836 --there is no person who fills the bill in all of the categories. So its possible that someone with only some of the characteristics might be examined:

Any first name Jon, John, Johan, Johannes, Jens of any last name with a birthyear of 1836:

On the Albion from Bergen to New York 9 July 1844:
464. John Sjursen Vangsnæs b. 28 Feb 1836 emigrated from Leikanger, SF with parents and 3 siblings. Although there were details on all the others in the family the book says about John only "he may have d in the Civil War."

On the Peder Schreuder from Bergen arrived New York 30 June 1845:
298. Johannes Olson Holstad b 27 Dec 1836 came from Vik SF with parents and 3 siblings. Details on Johannes, he married Ida Johnson, had 5 children & moved 1855 to Mower county, Minn.

On the Juno from Bergen to New York arriving 18 June 1846:
29. Johannes Emmaus Mathiasen Himo b. 13 March 1836 came with parents and 2 siblings from Overhalla, NT. Family settled in Wisc & Kansas. About Johannes detail is short but says "he may be the John Himoe who transferred from the 8th KS Volunteer Cavalry to the WI volunteers in November 1861."

ship not identified but thought to have arrived in 1846
1536. Johannes Johannesen Stokland b. 27 Aug 1836 with parents & 5 siblings from Bø, TE, no other information.

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 08/08/2013 12:33:45
Message:

Could Jens be changed to Johan in the US?

Jens Pedersen born on Gran, Hadeland district, Oppland county April 29. 1836
Parents; Peder Guldbrandsen and Anne (Barbro) Pedersdatter, #51

No sign of the parents 1865.
He was confirmated Mai 30. 1852
3 Jens Pedersen age 27-28-29 in the 1865 census on Gran.


Kåre

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 08/08/2013 12:53:08
Message:

Here is a John Petersen age 14 in the US 1850 census transcription. It appears, in the transcription at least, that he and a Eula Petersen are part of a household headed by an Osgin Thomason (although the next 2 are a Gunnell Petersen age 30 and Anne Petersen aged 10--probably useful to view the actual schedule):

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=24&filnamn=US1850&gardpostnr=129&merk=129#ovre

The actual schedule shows the Petersens as part of the Osgin or Osgir Thomason household. Although the 1860 census does not ask for a person's relationship to the head of household, for a working theory, I would interpret this arrangement as the widow Petersen with her 3 children living with Osgir and Ann Thomason with their son.

Reply author: JaneC
Replied on: 08/08/2013 17:22:07
Message:

Wonderful finds. The boy with the Osgir Thomason family is an excellent fit, so far. Another good find is Jens Pedersen, the son of Peder Guldbrandsen and Anne (Barbro) Pedersdatter. The latter fits two of the three best substantiated facts:

1. born 29 April 1836 (date probably came from an obit. If so it was not stated by John himself. His birth date does not appear on the death certificate, as Tim made clear. Maybe the death certificate does not ask for a birth date? If an informant/the family can tell the newspaper the birth date, then the informant/the family can write it on a death certificate! So that's odd.)

2. named Pederson (name known from family oral tradition.) Maybe janray can clarify whether the "d" is important in the oral tradition and where "Johan" comes from.

3. born in "Karagira, Norway" (birth place stated in death certificate) This criteria is not met. We have to remember John himself did not tell us this, but rather some informant after John's death.

janray - your ancestor is now identified as the same man as shown in the online family trees, since the online trees give their John Pearson the same wife you mention and the same death date shown on your private family tree.

as posted by jkmarler, from list of Norwegians in America:
1850 in Otsego, Columbia, Wisconsin, USA
Osgin Thomasen age 43
Ann Thomasen age 42
Tolle Osginsen age 10
John Petersen age 14 <-----
Eula Petersen age 12
Gunnell Petersen age 30
Ann Petersen age 10
all born in Norway

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 08/08/2013 17:53:30
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JaneC


3. born in "Karagira, Norway" (birth place stated in death certificate) This criteria is not met. We have to remember John himself did not tell us this, but rather some informant after John's death.

---

Reply author: JaneC
Replied on: 08/08/2013 18:10:51
Message:

So what's your thought about Jens Pedersen born 29 April 1836 on Gran, Hadeland, Oppland? Could John Pearson in Australia have lived there instead of having been born there? Or maybe he's had mail from there, from a family member, and the informant on his death certificate infers this is "where John came from"? Or...? (Easy to make up stories, hard to know the truth, lol)

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 08/08/2013 18:15:51
Message:

Karagira could also be a rendition of a farm name as well as a parish, not just a town.

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 08/08/2013 21:11:09
Message:

Karagira is Americanized.
After looking threw the records for Kragerø and the surrounding municipalities Bamble, Drangedal, Risør and Gjerstad, no Johan, John, Jens Pedersen found.

Jens Pedersen born April 29. 1836 in Gran parish on Hadeland still lived there when he was confirmated 1852.

Kåre

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 08/08/2013 21:42:27
Message:

Another option not have been tried.
Johan born April 29. 1836.
Father not with first name Peder but lastname Pedersen.

Kåre

Reply author: JaneC
Replied on: 08/08/2013 22:01:45
Message:

Good idea. On Ancestry.com I searched specifically in US military records databases for John but did not find him. I don't think "Karagira" is Americanized. Kragerø would be Anglicized to Kragero. Place names often get mangled, so who knows.

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 08/08/2013 23:31:50
Message:

A name can cause confusion and misunderstandings when the alphabet is pronounced differently.

As in this case;
Many years ago Chinaman in New York was named Ole Olsen. "How did you get that name" many asked.
"Well, we lined up and the man ahead of me gave his name as Ole Olsen.
When it was my turn I said my name was Sam Ting"

Has anyone looked into the Oslo records since Oslo was mentioned?

Kåre

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 09/08/2013 00:07:52
Message:

I checked the fourth and fifth volumes of Norwegian Immigrants and there were several 20-25 folks in each who left from Kragerø and a number of the ships went from Kragerø as well. Unfortunately I left my notes behind and until I can get back to the library my memory is the best I have to offer. There was a Johan Petterson b. 1831 who left from Kragerø but I'm not sure which volume it was in and there was no more biographical info on him.

I think checking for father's patronymic as Pederson is a good idea which I will take up in Volume II again, along with a looser time frame of birth year.

Reply author: janray
Replied on: 09/08/2013 02:42:35
Message:

I'm overwhelmed by the effort you ladies and gentlemen have put into this research.

Thank you so much for trying to find John Pearson's parents or a link to someone. I will say John Pearson as this is the only definite we have here in Australia according to the Blue Mountains Heritage Register.

Also had a few chuckles at the comments on how easy it is to have confusion and alterations in names or even comments, especially when there are different languages involved (or also in the same language).

I found a copy of an obituary in the Blue Mountains newspaper written in 1913 with details of the funeral and his life from 1863 to 1913 at Lawson but this didn't help with his past family info.

On my Great Grandmother's birth certificate copy, it shows, "baby daughter born March, 1887", Father, John Pearson, age 51, Born Norway, married to Martha (Alderman) in 1863 - still no link though to parents.

Thank you again to all.

Reply author: JaneC
Replied on: 09/08/2013 02:53:59
Message:

Fun to hear from you!

A few questions that only you can answer have been raised. If you don't mind, would you please reread this thread, take a look at the questions that came up previously, and have a go at commenting? Thanks.

Is the Blue Mountains Heritage Register the same as the Blue Mountains Pioneer Register mentioned earlier? What kind of publication is it? (or what kind of publication is each)

What I'm trying to figure out is: What is the source of the birth date 29 April 1836? You earlier said the date came from the "Blue Mountains Pioneer Register." Is this a newspaper that published an obituary in 1913 when John died? Or is it a Historical Society book or database that published the date years later? If the latter, where did the Historical Society get that date? I'm asking what is the ORIGINAL source for the birth date.

This was one of the questions raised earlier. I guessed the Register was a newspaper that published an obit in 1913. Now that there's a name change I think it's a book published years later. So, although you've tried to answer this question, I am still corn-foosed. :D

Thanks!

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 09/08/2013 03:06:10
Message:

What was John Pearson's occupation in Australia?

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 09/08/2013 13:56:56
Message:

"En god latter forlenger livet"
A good laugh prolings life Jane.

Jan.
Have you tried to search for Johan her

I believe his name in Norway also was Johan. Lastname could be Petersen or Pedersen.
And he em. with an aunt to USA after both parents died.
Many records or censuses to search.

Johan Pedersen Birthplace Norway 1836 or;
Johan Birthplace Norway 1836 fathers last name Pedersen/Petersen.

Kåre

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 09/08/2013 21:40:20
Message:

Some study of the names of the 1850 family might be useful. Osgir or Osgin for instance, what name would that be in Norwegian records?

I thought Ansgar, or Oscar / Oskar or Asser. Asgjer mostly appears to be a female name. In the 1865 census the oldest person with this type name (other than Oscar --too many of them) was a man named Asger Steenson abt about 65 years living in Saude (now Sauherad) born in Saude. Another variation was Asgondson with 2 people in Evje and Asgjeld aged 50 on Søgne. Mostly these names are situated around the southern point of Norway.

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 09/08/2013 23:46:46
Message:

Names almost changed to the unknowable.

- Asgjer; Asgier (male) Asgierd (female) 136 in 1801, none in 1865, more common in 1900.
- Asser is a old name, 102 persons in the 1801 census, ca 50 in 1865
- Names starts with Ans; Ansteen 167 persons i 1801, 120 in 1865
- Ansgar, common from 1900, could perhaps be Oscar ca 1850 in the US, Oscar was/is a common name in Norway

I guess the clerk wrote down what he heard, many of the imm. could not write or read, and with some hundred dialects in Norway, some diff. to understand even for a Norwegian today, no wonder that written names changed to the unknowable.

An example,
Eastern Norway; "Har du fått noe ørett på stanga"
Outher Sogn; "Hev du fått nokre tjø på troa"
English; Have you got any trout on the (fishimg) rod

Kåre

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 10/08/2013 02:51:27
Message:

Okay the John Petterson mentioned earlier came as a 19 year old. He was born 1 April 1831 in Sauherad. He also is listed as leaving in the church records. The ship he came on was the Colon sailing from Kragerø on 15 June 1850 & arrived in New York on 12 Aug 1850. Very many of the folk on the boat were from Telemark, a number from Sauherad and a number of these ended up in Columbia county, Wisconsin amongst other Wisconsin places. His parents are given as Peder Olsen Kuslongen and Aslaug Larsdatter. No other biographical information about John Petterson is included in the book, Volume 5 1850 of the Norwegian Immigrants to the United States: a Biographical Directory 1825-1850. eliminated see pg 5 this topic.

Also in Volume 2, the book covering 1844, I found no John nor variant of John including Hans, with any patronymic name b. during the 1830s whose father's patronymic was Pederson.

I haven't been able to generate any traction on the family [ies] in Columbia county, Wisconsin 1850 census. They don't seem to appear in any of the Directories, nor with any degree of certainty, in other records from the county..

I have also used the passenger search on this site for the many possible name spelling combinations but cannot say that there was any compelling finding. there either.

Reply author: janray
Replied on: 11/08/2013 12:08:04
Message:

Goodness, yes I can see how very important a proven birth date is and also the birthplace.

Also how "corn-foosing" it can easily be........I'm totally confuzzled now.

To be honest, I will have to get in touch with one of the ladies who put this family book together but she is in her 80's now (I'm one of the latest to have asked for a copy).

Our John Pearson's occupation in Australia was "Railway Worker" working on the first line out west and after his land grant in 1887, which he and his wife named "Hillside", he was a "Dairy Farmer."
This farm was taken over in later years by his daughter (my great grandmother) and her husband who continued to run the dairy and also a Boarding House. On that land, the family generations continued to live and it is now occupied by one of Johan and Martha's great grandchildren, who's mother (also Martha) lived in that house and raised her family.

Now.....if I can just find the other questions without losing this post.
I will post this one and then go back to the other Q's.

I appreciate that everyone is trying to ascertain that we have the right man.
Some of the info. from so far back could easily just be lost in the years and translations which have passed by.

Reply author: janray
Replied on: 11/08/2013 12:35:57
Message:

Some answers to the best of my knowledge.

1. Birth date was taken from the Blue Mountains Pioneer Register - Pre 1920's. Entry No. 361.

I will have to answer one at a time as I keep losing the reply box. Not very good at navigating my way around.

Reply author: janray
Replied on: 11/08/2013 12:40:29
Message:

2. Yes, Oslo was a family tradition source as far as I know but I will need to check up on that.

3. The siblings list is set out in the family tree however, I feel certain that whoever in the family wrote this info. would have taken it from a reliable source, (perhaps BDM micro fiche ?) Will check up on that too.

Reply author: janray
Replied on: 11/08/2013 12:46:14
Message:

4. I have never heard any info. about John's time in the U.S. Jane C. sorry. It's a blank as far as family stories go.

5. Yes, his first son was John C. born 17th September, 1864.

Thank you for the offer of an email......I just saw your post regarding this.

I am quite happy to give you my email address........do I put it on this site?

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 11/08/2013 16:50:48
Message:

Going through my KNA kart map book there are only a few places other than Kragerø with a combination of the letters found in "kiragira":

Kråkerøy
Kjerringa
Kvitteggja
Kåravik
Karøyan

Thanks for correx

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 11/08/2013 17:00:31
Message:

Krakerøy is perhaps Kråkerøy (Crow-island) at Fredrikstad town, Østfold County.

Kåre

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 11/08/2013 18:40:27
Message:

I post this baptism rec. for safekeeping.
Do not be confused of all the postings, this is probably not the right Johan, just for safety.........
If a doc. has blurred handwrting or bad ink 21 and 29 can be misinterpreted.

Johannes Pedersen born April 21. 1836 in Glemmen at Fredrikstad (same parish as Kråkerøy) and bap. at home July 17.
Parents;
Shipmaster Peder Jonsen and Johanne Jonsdatter #27

No sign of them in Glemmen 1865, have not seached in other parish`s.

Kåre

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 11/08/2013 19:12:16
Message:

How interesting there is a Johan Hendrik just above at #22 who was born 29 April 1836, no Peder or Pederson connection though.

Reply author: Kåarto
Replied on: 11/08/2013 19:43:45
Message:

I saw him too, for a second I ...........
Johan Hendrich Simonsen.

His aunt took care of Johan, he was an orphan.

What if he lived under his aunts lastname in the US.
If she was a Pedersen and was the sister to Johans unknown mother with lastname Pedersen.

Many ifs.......sorry, but all options must be kept open.

Kåre

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 11/08/2013 22:59:08
Message:

Here are all the 14 year old males whose first name starts with Jo with any last name at the 1850 Norwegians in US database from digitalarkivet:

John Petersen 14 m Norway 54 Columbia Co., Otsego Wisconsin
4610 John Jackson 14 m Norway 205 Exeter Green Wisconsin
5550 John Hovel 14 m Norway 270 Wiota La Fayette Wisconsin utv. 1848
5913 John Christenson 14 m Norway 68 Newton Manitowoc Wisconsin
6185 John Christenson 14 m Norway 550 Newton T. Manitowoc Wisconsin utv. 1845 fra Ringerike
9111 John Gunderson 14 m Norway 385 Whitewater Walworth Wisconsin
9138 John Nelson 14 m Norway 388 Whitewater Walworth Wisconsin utv. 1846
12108 John Swainson 14 m Norway 273 1 Ward Chicago Cook Illinois

John Nelson, like John Petersen, is in a household headed by people who have a different last name than his:

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=16&filnamn=US1850&gardpostnr=9138&merk=9138#ovre

Anders Gunderson family with whom John Nelson lives in 1850 were from Holla, Telemark. They came on the Bowditch from Havre (France I assume) lading in New York on 8 Aug 1846.

It's complicated. Anne, the "wife" in the household is the daughter of Christen Pederson Vassdalen and Anne Arnesdatter Rugla. That is the only Pederson link, very tenuous. John Nelson is identified as the child named Jens Nielsen of Anne's first marriage to Niels Jakob Jensen Berven and is listed with a birthdate of 13 Mar 1835. There is no other information about him in the book,

Reply author: Tim Pearson
Replied on: 18/03/2014 11:30:43
Message:

Hi All,

Shamefully it's been a while since I've been able to sink my teeth into the research. The research everyone has done is fantastic!

I restarted my research by taking stock of where I got up to, and thought I'd sum it up here. Concrete source evidence I have are:
- Death Certificate
- Certificate of Naturalization
- Photo of tombstone
- Wages card from NSW railways (sighted, no copy taken)

Having had a chance to take step back and the re-assess the evidence, there are a couple of key points/issues I have in identifying who "John Pearson" was:
1. according to the death certificate John Pearson died on the 21st March 1913 age 76, however his tombstone stats age 77, this would add an extra 12 month window to our possible window in birth date
2. The ship "Oscar". The line of research that has been followed in this thread would suggest the ship that left New York, which has given me pause, as the first line of inquisition I followed was the ship of the same name that left Gravesend, Kent, Dec 9th 1859, to arrive in NSW via Melbourne in 1860. This line of enquiry came from my visit to the state archives if NSW where I found ship logs (if which I very shamefully and am very sorry to say I can't find the record of) for the Oscar from Kent.
I apologise for not bringing anything new to the thread, thinking out loud has helped. If anyone is keen, I'd love to provide copies of the source material I've found, and I'm intending to push to find out who John was.

Reply author: spearson
Replied on: 14/11/2016 09:55:22
Message:

Hi everyone!

Like Tim, I'm late to the party.
I've been doing my own research lately. John Pearson is also a relative of mine. My Great Great Great Grandfather. From a source at Hill End Family History Archive, John Pearson is the Son of Petter Hench Wennebory, (more likely Wenneborg as a spelling error) Married an Elizabeth Christiansen was his mother and he was born April 3rd, 1836 Apparently. Born in Kragerø, (now Christiana), Telemark, Norway.

Anyway. I've been looking for other living descendants of John. He had lots of Kids, but I've found the family lines of 4 of his children. Jan Murray. If I can get a hold of you sometime we can make that 5. I believe you're Lilly's Granddaughter. I'd love to hear from you.

Reply author: JaneC
Replied on: 14/11/2016 11:29:29
Message:

???

Hi spearson, nice to hear from you. At the same time, your post is puzzling, as it contradicts the research done so far. Although you contradict the findings, you don't provide evidence as to why you are correct and the paper trail is wrong.

1) You state that your John Pearson was born in Kragerø (now Christiania). That one's easy to fix. Christiania is the old name for Oslo. Kragerø has never been called Christiania.

2) You state he "Married an Elizabeth Christiansen was his mother." So we'll fix that, it's just a typo, and say that in your story, Elizabeth Christiansen was not his wife, she was his mother.

3) You say his father was Petter Hench Wennebory (probably means Wenneborg).

4) You say your John was born April 1836.

5) If I guessed right about the mother, this is the birth-baptism record that most closely corresponds to your information.
02 October 1835 in Kragerø, Telemark
birth of Johan Carl
parents Peter Hench Wenneberg and Hedevig Elisabet Christensen
link

The Johan Carl born above is found in Kristiania (=Oslo) in the 1865 Norway census.
1865

Johan Carl Wenneberg was still in Kristiania in 1875 census. He is listed as "ug," = unmarried.
1875


Still in Oslo in 1885, now married with children.
1885

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 14/11/2016 12:03:12
Message:

Well, here is a possible for Peter Hench Wennerbory. He is a godparent in 1839 for a baptism. He should be at least aged 15 and likely older so could be aged as a parent for someone born 1836:
http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/gen/vis/255/pd00000002994618

Here is a younger sister to Jane's Johan Carl b 1840:
http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/gen/vis/255/pd00000002995126

Reply author: JaneC
Replied on: 14/11/2016 12:20:08
Message:

Well, spearson's ancestor John is the SAME John Pearson as discussed in this thread, which is born out by the reference to Lilly. (The John in this thread had a daughter Lilly) So spearson's John is not a different person descended from a Wenneberg.

The John Pearson in this thread was supposedly born 29 April 1836, but no compelling source was ever stated. (Source was a 1920s notation in a local Blue Hills archives; no further clarification of what that means). He went to the USA as a child, age 8 - so about 1844 (per family story). Story says he lived with an aunt. Family story says he was in the US Navy. Family story says traveled to NSW Australia ca 1860. Naturalization papers say John Pearson b 1837 in Kragera, Norway, arrived on the Oscar in 1860. Posted newspaper report had a ship Oscar arriving via Melbourne (I didn't note where arrived). Married Martha Alderman 1863 (source?). She was born in England; father was Charles; 10 children; 8 lived to adulthood (Ancestry.com tree). John Charles born 1864 (per descendant who posted). Worked on railroad. In later years said he wished he could trace family in Norway (family story). Therefore, seemingly not in contact - which means descendant knowledge of him in Australia came from him. Family story says original name Pederson. Death record says John Pearson died 22 March 1913 age 76; birth place Karagira, Norway; no other info from it posted. No obit posted. Tombstone "says age 77" (per descendant).

The Wennebergs were proposed as parents and ruled out. Nothing in NSW found so far points to Wennebergs in the ancestry of the John in this thread.

spearson hasn't yet explained about the Wenneberg trail, but certainly it would be great to hear more about that. I suspect the source was an erroneous family tree on file at that local archives - just a guess.

An earlier thread on this topic
link

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 14/11/2016 16:24:12
Message:

Sannidal and Kragerø were together at one time. Here is a possible Jens Pederson:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N43B-2ZK

Another possible from Sannidal:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N43B-P61

Another possible:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWPS-JBM

Another possible:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWPS-NXX

Reply author: AntonH
Replied on: 14/11/2016 16:46:29
Message:

A family tree for Peder Huech Wenneberg on Geni.com. Accuracy TBD

https://www.geni.com/people/Peder-Wenneberg/6000000022248618384?through=6000000022248500681

As mentioned by Jane, Johan Carl a very unlikely candidate.

Reply author: JaneC
Replied on: 14/11/2016 17:35:26
Message:

Support from Australia is needed to most effectively carry forward, and one gets the impression spearson is not seeking the forum's help and hence may not return.

Hill End Family Center indeed does accept genealogies from descendants, who presumably can be as accurate or as inaccurate as we see in other places, such as online trees.
link

"Venneberg" is a place in Eiker, Buskerud, I think. Anyone born there or having lived there could leave a trace of that name behind him in Australia. We don't know until we know. It's possible "Venneberg" is valid, but at this time John being connected to that name seems more likely to be a mistake than not.

Reply author: spearson
Replied on: 15/11/2016 05:29:15
Message:

Hi Everyone.
I'm back! Actually this Forum has been extremely helpful to my family and I want to thank everyone here for helping so much. Sorry for the brief impression. Tim has been doing much of the research. I've even discovered another forum member researching John Pearson here from 2002 who turned out to be distant family as well.

Much of my post about Christiana was copy/paste straight out of the Hill End History I discovered.
I meant in my last post that Elizabeth was married to Petter Hench, not their son John, who I know was married to Martha Alderman in Australia in 1863 after arriving in Australia via NZ on a ship called "the Oscar" in 1860, according to the copy I have his Naturalization (granted in 1892).
When I google Wennebory, I find only 7 results on the entirety of Google, whereas Wenneborg is a more common family name. But Venneberg is very likely also. Your research about Johan Carl is clearly a different John, since he appears to be in Norway when John was in Australia.
Jane’s summary in her other post is pretty much spot on with the clues we have. There were actually 9 Children that made it to adulthood, giving John Pearson 42 Grandchildren. I’m from Henry Pearson, b 1872. Janray said her great grandma was born 1887, which matches with John and Martha’s child Lilly. I had hoped to make contact with her, but I feel too late. I hope she reads this forum again sometime in the future.

The thing is, I'm unsure which relative helped compile the info on John's Parents at Hill End, So I can't ask them where they got their source from. They may have just chosen that John born in 29 of April, 1836 and went with it. Janray used the same date in her post, so she may have used the same source.
The trouble with John's Birthdate is that nobody seems to know. I know great grandchildren of John who haven't an idea of a birthdate either. His official documents say born Karagira on death certificate and Kragera on his Naturalization.
I hoped to follow up on this other John. I know it pushes the limit of his birthday, but could this John lead to anything? https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/7839/27

Again, thank's for helping with the research. I'll keep it at.

Reply author: AntonH
Replied on: 15/11/2016 05:54:21
Message:

quote:

---

I hoped to follow up on this other John. I know it pushes the limit of his birthday, but could this John lead to anything?

---

Reply author: spearson
Replied on: 29/12/2016 08:00:26
Message:

Hi Everyone!

I’ve been still working on John Pearson in my free time.
I’ve since reconnected with his Grandchildren of from all 9 branches of his children. Found photos of him from 1872. Read about his life in Lawson and the legacy he left.
But still, the mystery is no closer to being solved.

The 29 April 1836 Birthdate comes from a Pioneers Register from the region he lived in. It’s also mentioned that his place of birth was Cristiana (now Oslo) Norway. The book states Pre-1920, but it includes the death dates of both him and his wife in 1913 and 1924, It seems it’s written after her death. Can’t be certain where they got the date from.
John’s Tombstone says aged 77 years. He died 21 March 1913, while his Death cert says aged 76. Someone is wrong. Not sure which. But since one of his child’s birth certificates in late March 1887 say ‘Father aged 51’

Anyway. Since his naturalization paper says he arrived in the colony in NSW by the ship Oscar in 1860, I’ve looked it up
There is a ship log online.
http://marinersandships.com.au/1860/04/073osc.htm

No Pearson’s. But there is a John Scott aged 24

So the fact that it comes from New York is interesting.

Since talking to other relatives. They’ve got their own memories and memories of their parents (John’s grandkids who knew Martha when she was alive). The names they heard were Pierre Johannson, and Johan Peterson was another recollection. It’s said that his parents died early in his life and at age 8 went to the US (as a cabin-boy on a sailing ship) to live with relatives.
There was never any mention of the Oscar ship from their side. Instead from this source it’s said that John joined the US navy and deserted his ship with his friend Niels Hertzberg Larson, another Norwegian, and went west with barely any money to their name. Possibly changing their name on the run.

Now while that’s a nice story, I’ve asked a descendant of how Niels Larson how he arrived in Australia and he gave me a ship log.

http://marinersandships.com.au/1854/07/062psy.htm

Though it says he was from Denmark, he was in fact from Norway. John would have to be 18-20 in 1854 and no one matches up. It’s more likely that John knew Niels personally from the gold rush days since their mining towns were right next to each other. They could have been friends and Chinese whispers of how they both arrived off boats, from Norway and how they both changed their names at one point (possibly twice for John) and got the story mixed up over generations.

I still like the American angle though, since leaving New York means the orphan story is true.

Rereading the forum, I really liked the idea that John Peterson, aged 14 in 1850 that jkmarler came up with.
http://gda.arkivverket.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=24&filnamn=US1850&gardpostnr=129&merk=129

Maybe he went their to live with an uncle?

The son of Peder Guldbrandsen idea doesn’t match the census, since john was married in NSW in the 1960’s.

The more I do, the less I feel I’ll ever find his parents, since it seems clear that even John didn’t know who they were. Says here that he tried to find his family in the future but had trouble with lack of records and he had lost his language from living away.

I just wanted to give everyone an update. I feel like since both major stories place him in America at some point and there is evidence from his ship log that he was there, then that may be the best place to search at this point. This forum has been an incredible resource in connecting my family.

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 29/12/2016 15:46:11
Message:

Here is the link to the 1850 census transcription listing of the Orgin Tomasin household (in which John Peterson is found), once you are there you can click on the image link to view the whole schedule:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M4DX-3ZY

As I recall, I was unable to find anything more substantial about the family. The census schedule itself shows that Orgin owns about $1000 worth of land. Most likely there will be records of that at the Columbia county courthouse, his purchase (as long as it wasn't obtained as part of the US Federal homestead law) and the sale or disposal of the land.

There is also a Norwegian vessel named Askur which some folks in US remember as Oscar which was operating in the early 1860s, Don't know if it ever made the voyage to Australia or New Zealand or not, though.

In the ship portion of the main page here at Norway Heritage you can look at some facts about the vessel:
http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=askur

Reply author: JaneC
Replied on: 29/12/2016 19:46:17
Message:

Maybe this is Orgin / Osgin Thomasen (not a perfect match)
link

Emigration
link

Departing Skien 19 May 1843 on bark Winterflid
Augen Torgrimsen 39
Ingebor 38
Liv 14
Ingebor 12
Torgrim 9
Tollef 2

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 29/12/2016 20:44:34
Message:

Augen wasn't one I thought of but it is a good possibility.

Here is a link to Otsego twp in Columbia county Wisc if all goes as planned:
http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~4106~480020:Map-of-Columbia-County,-State-of-Wi

Reply author: AntonH
Replied on: 29/12/2016 23:29:10
Message:

This might be the John Petersen from the 1850 Census still in Columbia County Wisconsin along with the person known as Eula in the 1850 Census. Occupation listed as a unreadable maker.

John Peterson
in the 1860 United States Federal Census
Name: John Peterson
Age: 29
Birth Year: abt 1831
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Norway
Home in 1860: Portage Ward 4, Columbia, Wisconsin
Post Office: Portage
Family Number: 766
Value of real estate: View image
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Geetrich 30
George Helman 24
John Peterson 29
Emdy Peterson 27

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 30/12/2016 00:52:02
Message:

Orgin has a FAG memorial:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=torgrimson&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSst=51&GScnty=3002&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=140853386&df=all&

This family is in Volume I of the Norwegian Immigrants to the United States A Biographical Directory 1825-1943 by Gerhard Naeseth pg 258

There' s not a lot on them in US. It says Augund was born in Sauherad on May 3, 1804 the son of Torgrim Olsen Aarnæs and Liv Ougensdatter. Ingeborg was baptized 23 Dec 1804 and was the daughter of Tollev Tollevsen Gunnem and Ingebor Hansdatter.

The daughter Liv was born 23 Oct 1828 and married at Koshkonong 23 Dec 1846 to Leif Johannesen Dahle and they had one child. Leif Johannesen Dahle was also from Sauherad b there 29 Sept 1819. Came first to Koshkonong then to Otsego, Columbia county. He married 2nd Mari Torsteinsdatter on 24 Feb 1853

The daughter Ingeborg was born 2 or 21 Feb 1831.

The son Torgrim was born 25 May 1834

The son Tollef was born 23 July 1841.

Reply author: AntonH
Replied on: 30/12/2016 01:20:13
Message:

And an Ingeborg with a very similar gravestone and the same cemetery.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=140853372&ref=acom

Probably a match with this couple from Telemark

Augund Torgrimsen
in the Norway, Select Marriages, 1660-1926
Name: Augund Torgrimsen
Gender: Male
Age: 27
Birth Date: 1801
Marriage Date: 25 sep 1828
Marriage Place: Sauherad, Telemark, Norway
Spouse: Ingebor Tollefsdr
FHL Film Number: 127037
Reference ID: 2:1G4M1LW

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20061211310505

Reply author: spearson
Replied on: 30/12/2016 01:42:39
Message:

This is some great stuff.

The Askar is a little hard to trace up since it stayed mostly around Norway in the 1960s.

I like the census a lot. I think the household has the Mother as Gurnell Peterson, maybe widowed with three children. John being her first child. The older Thomasin Couple could have no relation. Maybe Norwegian friends or one might be Gurnell’s relative. The trouble is that there are quite a few family members, doesn’t match up with the orphan story well, since he’d be old enough to remember them could pass that story down. His first name, age, birth country and American angle is all we have to go off.

Lyndal’s census is likely a different John Peterson, since his birth year is too far back.

Sadly my John’s history may forever remain a mystery to the family and to the corners of this web forum. He just didn’t leave us with enough to go off. :(

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 31/12/2016 01:59:25
Message:

I did go through all the utflyttedes from Sauherad 1844-1850 looking for a Gunnil leaving with three children but found none with the right names, ages etc. Perhaps Gunnil is related to the apparent wife Ann who might be the 2nd Mrs. Ougun Torgrimsen since the first apparently died in 1848. Lots and lots of Telemarknings in Columbia county.

Have you ever searched for John Peterson or Person in the Trove newspaper search site?

Reply author: AntonH
Replied on: 31/12/2016 02:08:08
Message:

An update on the John Pedersen born in 1831 and arriving on the Colon posted by Jackie on page 3.. He is found in the record for "Norwegians of Dodge and Olmsted, Minnesota" I think we can eliminated him as he died in 1901.

http://oiseth.org/getperson.php?personID=I363&tree=dodgo

Reply author: jkmarler
Replied on: 31/12/2016 05:48:50
Message:

He is probably also the same John Peterson in the 1870 census in Columbia county, Wisc.

Reply author: AntonH
Replied on: 31/12/2016 23:53:49
Message:

Ingeborg born in 1804, number 83

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20061211010193

Probably the family in 1801 before Ingeborg was born

https://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/en-gb/ft/person/pf01058311002002

Reply author: LozzaA
Replied on: 02/01/2018 00:15:15
Message:

Hi
I am new to this site so please be patient.

I too am looking for John Pearson who was apparently born Johan Pettersen (may or may not have had Carl as his middle name) in 1836 and who came to Australia in 1860 and married Englishwoman Martha Alderman in 1863. They resided at Lawson in New South Wales and had 13 children including my grandmother. He is proving to be quite elusive and he seems to have been mixed up with the Wenneberg family in several trees (including mine) as these people had a son within a year of my great grandfather's birth named Johan Carl also.

I have even thought maybe his name may have been Carl Johan Pettersen as sometimes people went with another variation for various reasons and there are a few of them too but I haven't come across any born in 1836 as yet.

Is there somewhere in Norway that I may be able to write to and see if they can help me solve this riddle? I would appreciate any help you maybe able to offer me. I hate not having solved it and finding out more about my Norwegian roots. I know he was a railway ganger and then worked as a miner in a gold mine when in Australia so not sure what he did before but I would love to find out more. I do have a picture of he and his wife but would also love to know and see more of his and his ancestors' history. I've also heard that he was orphaned at 8 years old and went to live with relatives in America but I haven't come up with anything at all from the US either so he is proving to be a real mystery.

Thank you in advance if any of you can help me with this person's information.

Regards
LozzaA

Reply author: AntonH
Replied on: 02/01/2018 22:50:51
Message:

There are other internet sites that will help people with questions about their ancestors. For example Brukernes eget forum (User's Own Forum) is one and it does have a section in English on how to use the Forum.

Link

I am not sure that they will be able to provide much more information on your John Pearson than that is found in the 5 to 6 pages already generated on the John Pearson who married Martha Alderman in 1863 in Australia. However if you do try another site please inform them of the work already done so they do not spend a lot of time generating the knowledge already known.

The information that seems to pop up on your John Pearson is that he was born maybe April , 1836 and maybe was born in Kragerø parish, Telemark County, Norway and maybe arrived in Australia in 1860 on a ship named Oscar.

It seems likely that some of the speculative information is incorrect since it did not lead to a good candidate after some significant amount of time searching.

The two candidates found born in 1836 in Kragerø, Telemark by Kåre proved to be dead ends.

John/Johan Pedersen/Petersen born in Kragerø;
- Andreas Johan Petersen bap. Nov. 27. 1836. Parents; Peter Hasset and Else Severine Sørensen
- Johan Carl Pedersen bap. Feb. 21. 1836. Parents; Petter Heuch Wennenberg and Hedvig Elisbeth Christensen

I have looked at the manifest for the arrival of the Oscar on April 2, 1860 in Ancestry.com data base All New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922 and found of the crewman only two John's, a John Mills and a John Scott born 1836 and 1838. But not very good name matches.

Reply author: AntonH
Replied on: 03/01/2018 00:06:11
Message:

One of the posts by spearson refers to "arriving in Australia via NZ on a ship called "the Oscar" in 1860, according to the copy I have his Naturalization (granted in 1892) and born Kragera on his Naturalization. " The data from the Naturalization has the advantage of most likely been given by John Pearson himself and may thus have a better chance to be accurate than that from the death certificate or from memories of his descendants.

Here is a list of the Crew of the Oscar arriving April 2, 1860, Sydney, New South Wales.

Name Estimated birth year Port of Arrival Voyage Arrival Date Vessel Name Origin Location View Images
View Record
Edward Domedy
abt 1838 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
C Essmein
abt 1841 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
Ewen Evans
abt 1839 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
Wm Forbes
abt 1832 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
Simon Grays
abt 1835 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
Chs Hagg
abt 1837 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
Jost Hayes
abt 1839 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
Doctor Osew Jefferson
abt 1828 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
Jas Jugenoll
abt 1836 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
Otto Kiahn
abt 1842 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
John Mills
abt 1838 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
Chs Portersen
abt 1833 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
Jas Rame
abt 1836 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
John Scott
abt 1836 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States
View Record
Joseph Sears
abt 1842 Sydney, New South Wales 2 Apr 1860 Oscar United States

As you can see there is no name close to that of John Pearson on the list, so if the Naturalization Record for John Pearson is correct his real name could be quite different from Johan Pedersen.

Reply author: LozzaA
Replied on: 03/01/2018 00:52:50
Message:

Hi lyndal40

Thank you so much for that information I will have a look at the site you suggest and see what I find.

It is very difficult to find out any information on him as I am not sure what I have to do to find him either in Norway or perhaps I may find him in America.

Thanks again I'll let you know if I find anything further.

Regards

Norway Heritage Community : http://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/