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ToreL
Advanced member
Norway
818 Posts |
 Posted - 31/07/2020 : 13:05:50
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quote:
Originally posted by halvelm1
I found 3 people (maybe brothers) named Corporal in the 1701 Roros male census. This would mean the name was in use before the war in 1678 and not military.
I don't follow the reasoning. People may change their names during their lifetimes, and did so even more in the past than now. A military unit Bergkorpset was organized in 1675 to defend the mines, and consisted of workers in the mine. That would give plenty of time for people (even those born before 1675) to turn their military degree into something like a last name before 1701. |
Edited by - ToreL on 31/07/2020 13:12:03 |
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halvelm1
Medium member
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2020 : 18:47:44
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| In the 1691-1700 Roros church book I found multiple references (baptism of children) to two of the men found in the 1701 census. Mogens Corporal and Oluf Corporal are listed as working in the copper works as smelter and rostwender in the census. The Church book uses patronymic Ole Olsen Corporals (see https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070907650580) for Oluf. There is evidence of military in the churchbook in this period, so I have to reevaluate my conclusion that Corporal was not a military rank. (see https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070907650745 and https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070907650748 . These pages have a "Captain" reference). I have to conclude that perhaps Oluf and Mogn were local volunteers, from the copperworks, that decided to adopt their rank as a family name. If anyone can help read these old churchbook entries I have others for Ole and Mogn where help in deciphering the birth info would be appreciated. |
Larry H |
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halvelm1
Medium member
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2020 : 01:10:30
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ToreL
Thanks for your help. You were correct as confirmed by my further research (see 1/08/2020 post). My trouble now is illegible entries in the 1691-1700 and 1720 --Roros church book . One page 67 seems to have some marriage info followed by names of baptised children. Link is: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070907660036. This page twice mentions Corporals. In middle of page " Bleny og Gift XXadin gang fov XXX Olsen Corporal og Mariette Christophersdatter...." and on bottom (25 Oct) " Benns XXdan Olufsen Corporal Capulenet mnd Marinette F??iringsdatter ...." |
Larry H |
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ToreL
Advanced member
Norway
818 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2020 : 11:13:46
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| I have only limited talent for reading source material. You can post queries at the discussion forum for the Norwegian genealogy association Slekt og data. Registration in the forum is free. There is a dedicated sectipn "Get help reading source material." Some amazingly gifted people are very active there. The discussion is generally in Norwegian, but it is OK to post in English. |
Edited by - ToreL on 02/08/2020 11:26:59 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2020 : 16:03:21
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quote:
Originally posted by halvelm1
ToreL
Thanks for your help. You were correct as confirmed by my further research (see 1/08/2020 post). My trouble now is illegible entries in the 1691-1700 and 1720 --Roros church book . One page 67 seems to have some marriage info followed by names of baptised children. Link is: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070907660036. This page twice mentions Corporals. In middle of page " Bleny og Gift XXadin gang fov XXX Olsen Corporal og Mariette Christophersdatter...." and on bottom (25 Oct) " Benns XXdan Olufsen Corporal Capulenet mnd Marinette F??iringsdatter ...."
Since your link didn't work for me, here is page 67 in the first book: of Roros
SAT, Ministerialprotokoller, klokkerbøker og fødselsregistre - Sør-Trøndelag, 681/L0923: Parish register (official) no. 681A01, 1691-1700, p. 67
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070907650637
and page 27 in the second book:
SAT, Ministerialprotokoller, klokkerbøker og fødselsregistre - Sør-Trøndelag, 681/L0924: Parish register (official) no. 681A02, 1720-1731, p. 26-27
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070907660016
oops!
and page 67 in second book:
SAT, Ministerialprotokoller, klokkerbøker og fødselsregistre - Sør-Trøndelag, 681/L0924: Parish register (official) no. 681A02, 1720-1731, p. 66-67
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070907660036
It actually starts at the bottom of page 66 I think the gent's name is Peder Olsen (also as Olufsden) Corporal and the woman's name as Maritta Erichsdatter. The capitalized C is written differently with a little down stroke just inside the curve. That's why I think its Erichs instead of Christophers.
So what it looks like is this is a busy page with banns announced and baptism and funerals at the same dates.
So the first time Peder Olufsen Corporal's and Maritta Erichsdatter's banns are announced is in the middle of page 66 4 October 1722. The second time their banns are announced is at the exact bottom of page 66 and to the top of page 67 on 11 October 1722, and third time is in the middle of page 67 18 Oct 1722. They are finally married on 25 Oct 1722 near the bottom of page 67.
The busiest date is Sunday 18 Oct 1722. The services we see are:
1. Marriage of Ole Lauritsen ____ and Guri Nielsdatter
2. Baptism of Ingebor daughter of Ingebright Bru and the list of her faddernes (witnesses or godparents)
3. Burial of Jogen Erichsen's daughter G_____ who died 12 Oct 1722 aged 1 year and 13 weeks
4. Banns reading 3rd time of Peder Olufsen Corporal and Marietta Erichsdatter
5. Then there is a section which looks like it might be in Latin with the years 1723, 1724, 1725 mentioned (announcing a punishment for ___?)
6. Service for a stillborn daughter of Andres Clausen
Re the debate about the use of Corporal. There is a spot in Roros today called "Korporalsvollen" and I note on the map many lanes of Grenadersvollen which I think might be Grenadiers. So perhaps Corporal is an address like other farm names seen in the pages. If all goes well this will be a link to the map showing Korporalsvollen in Roros:
https://kart.1881.no/?r=F3833400 |
Edited by - jkmarler on 02/08/2020 17:44:55 |
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halvelm1
Medium member
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2020 : 21:55:14
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jkmarler
Just noticed your post. I believe Peder Olsen Corporal is 1st cousin,1x of of my Mogen Olsen Corporals. I did not have the marriage date for Maritta Erichsdatter, but did have a date of death (1753). The map info on Korporalsvollen makes me think, as I did originally, that Corporal referred to a living place, as a farm name. If that's the case I may have to reconsider the relationships I have between all the Corporals - some may just be neighbors. I wonder if there was military housing on that site in the mid 18th century or earlier? Perhaps miners lived there later and the Corporal name was kept. Someone living in that Roraas Neighborhood today might know.
Had a find today on another Miner. This one lived in Kongsberg. This link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/27/pa00000000539595 is for a probate register. I can't be sure who died? Is Ole Andersen Leger the deceased, Anne Andersdatter from Sandsvaer Moen the wife, and Peder and Nicolaj the sons?
I found Nicolaj in the 1765 Kongsberg Solverk census as Nicolaius Olsen Giaeger living with parents. Nicolaj later went by Jaeger. Is this likely a misreading gothic script or is it possible Liger/Giaeger/Jaeger are different places?
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Larry H |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2020 : 21:59:14
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quote:
Originally posted by halvelm1
I can't be sure who died? Is Ole Andersen Leger the deceased, Anne Andersdatter from Sandsvaer Moen the wife, and Peder and Nicolaj the sons?
Ole Andersen Leger is the widower and one of the heirs. The deceased is his wife Anne Andersdtr.
Peder and Nicolaj are their sons and also part of the heirs. |
Edited by - jwiborg on 11/09/2020 22:03:44 |
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halvelm1
Medium member
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2020 : 18:18:42
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| It seems strange the wife of a miner would have an estate to probate. I thought it was common that the poor did not have enough estate to probate. It is possible Anne is not his first wife. Can we be sure from probate that both sons are hers, and that a third son is not listed because he died? Bapt. records of sons do not show mother. It could be there are two Ole Andersens? Marriage I found in 27 Mar? 1742 was between Ole Andersen, Lying and Christiana Fredrica Sahlgaard. Sons Peter (14 Feb 1743) and Nicolaj (7 Jun 1749) bapt. records show father as Ole Andersen Jagers; for third son Andreas Nicolaj, 12 Sept 1756, Ole Andersen was at Hassels farm. Is there any more of the probate record to be seen? I believe I read the complete record was not scanned. I have work to do checking death records and Sandsvaer births - that may resolve some of this. |
Larry H |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2020 : 18:38:05
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quote:
Originally posted by halvelm1
It seems strange the wife of a miner would have an estate to probate. I thought it was common that the poor did not have enough estate to probate. It is possible Anne is not his first wife. Can we be sure from probate that both sons are hers, and that a third son is not listed because he died? Bapt. records of sons do not show mother. It could be there are two Ole Andersens? Marriage I found in 27 Mar? 1742 was between Ole Andersen, Lying and Christiana Fredrica Sahlgaard. Sons Peter (14 Feb 1743) and Nicolaj (7 Jun 1749) bapt. records show father as Ole Andersen Jagers; for third son Andreas Nicolaj, 12 Sept 1756, Ole Andersen was at Hassels farm. Is there any more of the probate record to be seen? I believe I read the complete record was not scanned. I have work to do checking death records and Sandsvaer births - that may resolve some of this.
Yes sometimes "poor" people have an estate settlement. If you look at the actual vs the transcribed record there might be more detail in there. If it is online it might be part of this set of records from Kongsberg:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/sk/browse?municipalities%5B%5D=0604&start_year=&end_year=&text=
Dodsfallsprotokol often contain the information that the person had nothing. Often infants are listed in dodsfallsprotokol, who by dint of their age will have nothing. One idea in this record set is that a person who has nothing might eventually be found to have blood right to a property. Better to know who might be survivors of them no matter how poor or far-flung they might be. |
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halvelm1
Medium member
USA
90 Posts |
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halvelm1
Medium member
USA
90 Posts |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 13/09/2020 : 15:41:44
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quote:
Originally posted by halvelm1
Wow! found the probate! She would be my 4g grandmother - best find in a long time.
Now if I could only read it. Its a page and a half - the second page seems to say "House and Board".
Can anyone read the list of heirs on the first page?. Seems to be only Peder and Nicolaj, but don'y know what paragraph above says.
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/25380/350
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/25380/351
It actually covers parts of 3 pages. The handwriting and the Norwegian are little too challenging for me, but the math certainly speaks. On the third page is a section labelled "Arvelod....", I think this is the amount that the 3 survivors inherit: the widower Ole Andersen Jeger 196 rd 78 s; each son receives 98 rd 39 s for a total of 415 rd 78 s. Percentage-wise it appears Ole gets half and the other half is divided in two (since there are 2 sons). The division would have differed if there had been more or less children or possibly a mix also including daughters. (By comparison, in US, intestate- those who died without a will- default settlements are often 1/3 of the estate to the surviving spouse, with children dividing equally--regardless of gender- the remaining 2/3.)
Tax rate (Google translation of taxerette) are mentioned in a couple of places (Uncle Sam gets his cut, in this case the King?).
So take a lesson from American intestate probate records. Usually first there is the announcement of the death of a person; then the naming of an estate administrator, a preliminary listing of heirs, then the inventory of the estate, valuation of the items either by appraisal or sale, listing of expenses of the estate, naming the complete list of heirs, then distribution of the difference between the value of the estate and its debts or obligations, to the heirs.
The first date is 27 Feb 1766 on page 344a, under Huus og Baard there appear to earlier dates 24 July 1759 and 1 Aug 1761 then on 344b is 18 Sept 1766 followed by 25 June 1766
Other names mentioned at the beginning and throughout are:
Hans Jocumsen Gierulf, Hans Stamp, CK Barth
Other names mentioned less frequently:
page 344a under Grae Boeskab Boel Isachsen,
page 344a under Creature Boel Isachs., Niels Mikkelsen
page 344b Hans Andersen Wejden, Ingebret Olsen ________
Its mentioned again and again throughout that Peder Olsen is the elder son and is fully adult and that Nicholai Olsen is not of age (i.e. a minor).
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halvelm1
Medium member
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 14/09/2020 : 00:05:20
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| Thanks, I thought it was only a 1-1/2 pages - I would have missed some of it. I will have to check her DOD -- due to the various dates -- it could be before July 1759. Ingebret Olsen and Hans Andersen are probably relatives. Would the other names mentioned be receiving something from the estate? Wonder if 415 Riksdalers was typical for a wife's estate for people of that circumstance? Must be above some limit or it would not have been probated. |
Larry H |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 14/09/2020 : 01:56:08
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| If they were going to get anything they would have been mentioned both as a legatee and then what their share was. |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
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Roros-Roraas and Miners
