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 Anna Delius, transcription question
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Ray Syverson
Junior member

USA
31 Posts

Posted - 14/09/2014 :  01:00:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Transcribed passenger list for Anna Delius, arriving Quebec 7June 1866, has passenger no. 104 Peder Skinderliengen listed as a watchmaker going to Chicago. The image I was able to find of the passenger arrival list in Quebec appears to show Peder going to Wisconsin, and the passenger listed below him as being the watchmaker going to Chicago.

It helps my cause if Peder was the one who was the watchmaker. Is it possible I am interpreting the original arrival list wrong, or that possibly there was another original list that was used to transcribe?

Thanks, Ray

lyndal40
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
8003 Posts

Posted - 14/09/2014 :  01:54:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The original manifest on Ancestry.com looks to me as if Peder is going to Wisconsin and that an Even Arnesen is the watchmaker (urmaker, spelled uhrmager in the original manifest) going to Chicago.

Canadian Passenger Lists, 1865-1935
Name: Peder Skindertringen
Date of Arrival: 1866
Vessel: Bergen
Search Ship Database:
Port of Arrival: Quebec
Roll: C-4521

Edited by - lyndal40 on 14/09/2014 02:03:35
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lyndal40
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
8003 Posts

Posted - 14/09/2014 :  02:12:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is likely the way that the the name Even Arnesen was transcribed for Ancestry.com.

Canadian Passenger Lists, 1865-1935
Name: Even Nenesen
Date of Arrival: 1866
Vessel: Bergen
Search Ship Database:
Port of Arrival: Quebec
Roll: C-4521

The only thing I might add is that things are fairly messy over in the far right hand column where the identification of uhrmager and Chicago are listed so it is possible that the words uhrmager and Chicago could be one line off. Stranger things have happpened.


Edited by - lyndal40 on 14/09/2014 02:28:24
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
6757 Posts

Posted - 14/09/2014 :  13:48:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, the 1865 Norwegian census is so close in date to the departure your Peter might be findable in it occupied as a watchmaker....
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Ray Syverson
Junior member

USA
31 Posts

Posted - 14/09/2014 :  19:27:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you lyndal for checking that, and thank you jkmarler for the suggestion. There is somewhat of a mystery to this. Peder and Marthinus Skartlien, the passenger listed just above Peder, were friends from nearby farms. Marthinus Skartlien was the brother of my 2nd grt grandfather Andreas Syversen Skartlien. Peder and Marthinus had obtained from their church the papers or pass required to travel to Amerika several years before in 1858. This is in the parish record. However, both Peder and Marthinus changed their minds and never went to America-ever. I did find Peder in the 1865 census and he was a lumberman/ tree cutter and NOT a watchmaker. So somebody went to Amerika years later in 1866, illegally by posing as Marthinus and Peder. This time fits perfectly with when my Andreas would have come over, and his motive for illegally emigrating would have been to avoid his military obligation (he was 30 years old in 1866). I think he used his brothers papers to get on a ship out of Norway. Although Andreas soon settled in Chicago, he would have very likely first gone to Wisconsin where his cousin had just settled. Wisconsin was the destination listed for "Marthinus". So what about the watchmaker? Later I found out that a close acquaintance of Andreas, named Ole Christian Land, was a watchmaker in Chicago who had also come to Amerika in 1866. So, the transcription I saw for Anna Delius for June 1866 seemed to back this theory up very well. I could not find any Even Arnesens who were watchmakers anywhere in the US,and did find one living in Iowa in 1900, who had emigrated in 1866, but was a farmer. Everything I've been able to find out about Andreas Syversen and Ole C.Land seems to back up my theory so far. That is why I want so badly for Peder to be the watchmaker. :)
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
6757 Posts

Posted - 14/09/2014 :  20:23:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So Andreas posing as Peder reverted to Andreas Syvertson after he got to US?
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
3019 Posts

Posted - 14/09/2014 :  20:33:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think Ray suspects Andreas Syversen Skartlien posed as his brother Marthinus Syversen Skartlien.

1865 census at Skartlien, Land, Oppland are Martin Thogersen, Helline Nilsdatter, and offspring. Their children Christian, Torger, and Marthe seem to be passengers, same voyage.

Edited by - JaneC on 14/09/2014 21:05:22
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Ray Syverson
Junior member

USA
31 Posts

Posted - 14/09/2014 :  21:18:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think that Andreas posed as Marthinus Skartlien(his brother) and Ole Land may have posed as Peder. Andreas reverted to Andreas Syversen (without the T) after he got to the US. Marthinus is in the 1865 census at Skartlien Nordre. The other people from Skartlien on the voyage were cousins. I have not been able to find Andreas Syvertsen/Syversen in that census. He was born in Land in July 1835. Thanks for suffering through my story. I'm sure that its more intriguing to me than anyone else. :)
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
3019 Posts

Posted - 14/09/2014 :  21:30:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Very intriguing theory. What do US records say re Andreas date of immigration? I know nothing of Norwegian military requirements, so I am curious about the draft evasion story. Is that family oral history? Or a theory you have considered because of not finding an emigration record? (Sounds like latter?) Torger Martinsen Skartlia age 23 in 1866 and Christian age 18 are not concealing their identities...?

Does Bygebok Nordreland mention Andreas?

Edited by - JaneC on 14/09/2014 21:36:43
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
6757 Posts

Posted - 14/09/2014 :  21:51:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ray Syverson

I think that Andreas posed as Marthinus Skartlien(his brother) and Ole Land may have posed as Peder. Andreas reverted to Andreas Syversen (without the T) after he got to the US. Marthinus is in the 1865 census at Skartlien Nordre. The other people from Skartlien on the voyage were cousins. I have not been able to find Andreas Syvertsen/Syversen in that census. He was born in Land in July 1835. Thanks for suffering through my story. I'm sure that its more intriguing to me than anyone else. :)



No it's an interesting story, but hard to understand. Current practice in Norway is the requirement at around age 18 for military service and so Andreas at 30+ would seem to be a bit long in the tooth. There was an adult Peder at Skinderliengen in 1865, unmarried and a tømmermand, no permission in the Torpa books for 1866 recorded --(several Peders there in that year but none with matching age or farm name).

http://gda.arkivverket.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=4&filnamn=f60536&gardpostnr=525&merk=525#ovre

Ole Land in 1880 census:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MXNR-CTD

Perhaps Ole Land was more than a friend but also a brother-in-law?
Ole C M Land
Marriage Record
Gender Male
Marriage Date Mar 10, 1872
Marriage LocationCook, IL
Record TypeMarriage Record
Bride's Information
Olive M. Syversen
Spouse, female

Ole Land's dates of migration from the census transcriptions: 1886 and 1868.

An Andr. Sivertson and G. Sivertson were faddernes to Ole's and Olina's/Olive's first son Martin Sigvart b 5 March 1875, bapt 13 June 1875.

Edited by - jkmarler on 15/09/2014 02:24:43
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
3019 Posts

Posted - 14/09/2014 :  23:17:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ray says Peder Skinderliengen and Marthinus Skartlien registered to emigrate 1858 (but did not go). I am m not at computer and haven't looked...
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Ray Syverson
Junior member

USA
31 Posts

Posted - 14/09/2014 :  23:19:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Andreas died in 1893, so no immigration info from 1900 census. Information from voter registration records in Chicago from about 1890 indicate that Andreas was in Illinois from 1867 on. He became a citizen in 1872, so he had to have been in the US at least 5 years, and the great fire in Chicago delayed a lot of the naturalization because records were destroyed. From what I was able to learn about Norwegian military obligations at that time, all males were enlisted at age 16 and remained enlisted until the age of 50, yes fifty. When they reached the age of 36 they could request to be released unless they were sailors. They could get out of the obligations other ways, like buying an estate or if they inherited an estate or farm. Børge Solem wrote about this some time ago. When I was trying to find a reason why Andreas may have left illegally, I learned what I could of the military obligations of the time. Its only part of my theory, but seems like it would make sense. The Peder at Skinderliengen in 1865 was the correct one. Ole C. Land did marry Andreas's sister Oline, the families were very close, and when Andreas died Ole was his executor for the estate. JK, where did you find that information about the baptism?
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran

Norway
5825 Posts

Posted - 14/09/2014 :  23:54:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Perhaps the answer lies here? Google book.
"Utvandringen til Amerika fra Nordre og Søndre Land 1839-1917 by Arvid Sandaker, Lands Museum 1973.
Emigration to America from Nordre and Søndre Land.......... link

Kåre

Edited by - Kåarto on 15/09/2014 00:00:08
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
6757 Posts

Posted - 15/09/2014 :  02:17:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have you looked at Syver Syversen Skartlien's estate record? Here is the dødfallsprokotol for him 21 April 1863, right hand page under Nordre Land, maybe there is some mention of Andreas' location:
Source information: Oppland county, Hadeland og Land sorenskriveri, Dødsfallsprotokoll 3 (SAH/TING-010/J/Jg/L0003), 1858-1863, oppb: Statsarkivet i Hamar.

Permanent page-link: http://arkivverket.no/URN:sk_read/34397/33/

The baptismal record is in the ELCA baptism database at archives.com
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Ray Syverson
Junior member

USA
31 Posts

Posted - 15/09/2014 :  03:00:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kåre, I have been able to look at "Utvandringen til Amerika". Peder and Marthinus are listed in 1858 and also in 1866,with question marks in 1866. Mr. Sandaker took some information from parish records and passenger lists in this case. So unfortunately nothing new here. Thank you for suggesting it though. JK, I have also looked at the probate/skifte? for Syver Syversen Skartlien and, although I find it extremely hard to read, I did not see anything that gave a hint or a clue concerning what Andreas did or was doing at that time. I was hoping to see something that said he was previously given some money for machinist training, since by 1869 he had his own machine shop in Chicago. Thank you for the suggestion., and thanks for the source of that baptismal record!

Ray Syverson
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
6757 Posts

Posted - 15/09/2014 :  03:08:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Since Andreas is not findable in Norway in 1865, perhaps he was already gone by then?

Don't know if this is your Oline but she is about the right age and leaving from N. Land in 1869:

http://gda.arkivverket.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&filnamn=STAV&personpostnr=85413&merk=85413
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