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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
7765 Posts

Posted - 23/07/2023 :  17:32:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gunild Marie Andersdatter's father is recorded as Anders Olsen on her marriage record. I think his name may be a twist in the record or in error.

So far the only Gunild Marie b. in Våle in 1817 found is the following birth baptism recorded #20 on right page and her father is recorded as Anders Hansen:
Våle kirkebøker, SAKO/A-334/G/Ga/L0001: Klokkerbok nr. I 1, 1814-1824, s. 48-49
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070403620263

The parents of Gunild's marriage is #5
Våle kirkebøker, SAKO/A-334/G/Ga/L0001: Klokkerbok nr. I 1, 1814-1824, s. 392-393
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070403620360

No father's names are given nor ages of the couple. But interestingly, one of the witnesses or bondsmen for the marriage include Thomas Eriksen Fjelleboden from Ramnes.

There is more than one time the Ole / Hans discrepancy was perpetuated in the records. This is the birth / baptism of another child of the same couple Anders Hansen and Olea Jonsdatter, named Karen Hellene.
#10 on right hand page
Våle kirkebøker, SAKO/A-334/G/Ga/L0001: Klokkerbok nr. I 1, 1814-1824, s. 108-109
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070403620293

In this entry the father's patronymic is first written as Olsen and then crossed out and replaced with Hansen.

Searching the 1801 census finds a possible person who might have a mixed or twisted patronymic. This Anders Hansen b 1783 or so has a mother named Gunild and a stepfather named Ole Gunnersen:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058289001161

Here is a tale of Ole Gunnersen (as Gundersen) from the Våle bygdebok:
https://www.nb.no/items/1afe83bf0f5505c6ef9b71a66df768aa?page=23&searchText=almedalen

Edited by - jkmarler on 23/07/2023 18:01:24
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Carlse
Starting member

United Kingdom
18 Posts

Posted - 23/07/2023 :  18:13:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That is a brilliant connection, Anders Hanson being a witness/godparent to half siblings Simen and Gustav. Also interesting to see my grandfather, Christopher Robinson Hanson, named his eldest son Thomas possibly after his paternal grandfather. So piecing together, my dad was Andrew Hanson, grandfather Christopher Robinson Hanson and great grandfather’s name Anglicised to Andrew, but was in fact Hans Christian Thomassen. His father was Tommes Erichsen who from translation was farmer and farm dweller, rural residence Fieleboen. There seems to be a number of different spellings as I’ve seen Fjelbuen/ Fjeldboen.
I assume these are different spellings for the same place. Having looked at pictures of Norway online it looks simply stunning. Shame the farm was sold and couldn’t be passed on to Hans. Wonder whether it’s still a farm. Brilliant work, thank you. Regards Carole
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
7765 Posts

Posted - 23/07/2023 :  18:41:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Allow me a correction: Between Christopher Robinson Hanson and Hans Christian Thomasen is another Andrew Hanson, the actual emigrant from Norway. And that's if Andreas b 1837 is the same man as Andrew Hanson in Durham.



Edited by - jkmarler on 23/07/2023 18:46:33
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Carlse
Starting member

United Kingdom
18 Posts

Posted - 23/07/2023 :  19:25:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In the Uk census of 1871 Andrew Hanson listed as a 30 year old mariner, born Norway. Married to Isabella (Best) so estimated birth year 1841. Naturalised British subject since 1869.
Then in 1881 he was 41 estimated year of birth 1840, working as a coal miner. Family members were all correct. However in both the 1891 and 1901 census records he was older, 54 and 64 respectively with estimated birth year of 1837. All record Andrew as being a naturalised British subject. One of his sons was Christopher Robinson Hanson born 1875, my dad’s father, who was also named Andrew born 1907.
Slightly confused now about the parents of Andrew Hanson born approximately 1837-1840 do you still feel Hans Christian Thomassen and Gunild Marie Andersdatter were the parents of Anders (Andrew) born 1837 (ish)? Also confused about some of the links as to Gunild’s parents and whether her father was Anders or Nils. I couldn’t understand the links, sorry! Regards Carole
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
7765 Posts

Posted - 23/07/2023 :  20:17:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry about the mess, this is kind of how the searches work here. We search until we think we have the right one, trying on and taking off until it fits.

Andreas Hansen Fjeleboen is most likely your guy but there are some hiccups in his records. The other Anders /Andreas Hansen in the Horten mustering in records who were born about 1840 */- 5 have so far not panned out, but I am continuing to look for threads of connection.

His father was Hans Christian Thomasen and his mother was Gunild Marie Andersdatter. Hans Christian Thomasen was born about 1799, half of a set of twins of parents Thomas Eriksen and Sibille Nielsdatter. Hans was the surviving child of his parents and he got the family farm of Fjelebuen, ownership of which actually goes through Sibille's ancestors. Hans Christian Thomasen was actually married twice and Gunild Marie is his 2nd wife. Hans Christian Thomasen and his father Thomas Eriksen each died in 1842. The farm then in 1843 passed to other hands. That might have been a matter of necessity if Hans was indebted and Gunild had no other means of support. It might be of interest to see if Hans had an estate record or if there is a purchase contract spelling out cash settlements for Gunhild and the surviving children from both marriages as well as any other survivors of his grandfather Thomas.

I hoped by discovering more about Gunild that there might be some additional invisible threads tying Andrew Hanson in Durham to Andreas Hansen in Norway. But when Gunild died, there was no mention of a living son in England in either her obit or her estate record. Since he was not dead, he should have been mentioned if the informant to the sheriff for the dodfallsprotokol knew the facts and could report. So I have to imagine that they had lost contact through the years and had no idea about Andrew being alive or that there was an estrangement or that --Horrors!-- I am possibly wrong...

Gunild Marie Andersdatter also has a few hiccups records wise. Her father definately being given two different patronyms Hansen and Olsen. I think the Anders Hansen from the 1801 census whose mother is Gunild and his stepfather Ole is a good possible explanation for that hiccup. The pastor might have known his as Ole's son rather than a Hans' son just from the passage of time and been confused in his own mind.
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Carlse
Starting member

United Kingdom
18 Posts

Posted - 23/07/2023 :  22:21:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello, wow I love getting all this information, thank you. As you say, if Andrew (Anders) had no contact with his mother, it would explain the lack of a mention in her obituary. A cousin who was 20 years older than myself sent me a copy of his naturalisation papers, unbelievably it didn’t give his date of birth or actual place of birth. I believe on the forum it appears Anders may have been born in Ramnes, but signed on as a seaman in Horten in 1860, jumping ship in 1861. That matches the naturalisation record in 1869 at least, as he said he’d lived in UK for 8 years. There’s only one census out of the 4 census records taken between 1870-1901 where apart from Norway as place of birth, Horten was mentioned. Regarding Gunild, yes I expect it was a necessity selling the farm, and would explain the comment made by my late fathers sister, who said their grandfather should have inherited money! Yes got confusing, Gunild’s father was Hansen or Olsen. It does take patience and perseverance researching doesn’t it? Regards Carole
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
7765 Posts

Posted - 23/07/2023 :  23:42:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is a map of the parishes of Vestfold. Ramnes, Våle, Horten, Borre are all cheek by jowl together. So that is why there is a lot of trading people forth and back.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Vestfold_County,_Norway_Genealogy
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran

USA
7765 Posts

Posted - 23/07/2023 :  23:55:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is a possible for Andrew in England in 1861. Depends on the date he went absent and the actual date the census was taken:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7BY-84T

I don't get to see what ship or his location is, do you have access?:
Name Andrew Henson
Sex Male
Age 24
Birth Year (Estimated) 1837
Birthplace Norway
Marital Status Single
Occupation A B Seaman
Event Type Census
Event Date 1861
Event Place United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) British Ships In Home Ports
Registration District British Ships In Home Ports
Household Identifier 4669068
Line Number 5
Page Number 1
Piece/Folio 4477 / 5
Registration Number RG09
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ToreL
Advanced member

Norway
818 Posts

Posted - 24/07/2023 :  00:36:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jkmarler

Here is a possible for Andrew in England in 1861. Depends on the date he went absent and the actual date the census was taken:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7BY-84T

I don't get to see what ship or his location is, do you have access?:
Name Andrew Henson
Sex Male
Age 24
Birth Year (Estimated) 1837
Birthplace Norway
Marital Status Single
Occupation A B Seaman
Event Type Census
Event Date 1861
Event Place United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) British Ships In Home Ports
Registration District British Ships In Home Ports
Household Identifier 4669068
Line Number 5
Page Number 1
Piece/Folio 4477 / 5
Registration Number RG09



It looks like a paid subscription to "findmypast" is required. Wikipedia and lots of other secondary sources give April 7 as the date of the 1861 census, but it is worth checking that this holds for all parts of it. The Horten sailors' register gives "3/7" as the date he jumped ship, and looking at other records on the same page it is clear that dates were written in the day/month format.

Edited by - ToreL on 24/07/2023 00:44:58
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ToreL
Advanced member

Norway
818 Posts

Posted - 24/07/2023 :  14:03:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Currently I happen to have an active MyHeritage membership with access to British censuses. Curiously, I don't find the above record in the 1861 England and Wales census. What I do find, however, is a match in the 1901 census that gives his age as 64 years:

Andrew Hanson
Kjønn:
Mann
Født:
Ca. 1837
Naturalised Norway B Subject
Bosted:
1901
High D Sq, Hetton Downs, Hetton Le Hole, Durham, England
Alder:
64
Ektskapsstatus:
Gift
Yrke:
Coal Mine Hewer
Ansatt:
Arbeider
Bosatt:
1
Antall rom:
2
Kone:
Isabella Hanson

Edited by - ToreL on 24/07/2023 14:07:21
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ToreL
Advanced member

Norway
818 Posts

Posted - 24/07/2023 :  14:45:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
After Jackie suggested that the blotch in the sailors' roll said Hartlepool, I couldnt't read it any other way. Still, I thought it would be good with a second opinion, and posted the record on a forum for handwriting interpretation, with no suggestion that this might be an English port. Still, the answer I got was Hartlepool.

Combining this with the correct year of birth in the later censuses, I no longer see any reason to doubt that we have the right Andrew.

Edited by - ToreL on 24/07/2023 14:50:26
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Carlse
Starting member

United Kingdom
18 Posts

Posted - 24/07/2023 :  14:53:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Unfortunately I haven’t got a subscription for Find my past, I do know Andrew Hanson had been living in the UK for 8 years, according to his naturalisation papers in 1869, so looks like he arrived in 1861. Will look at naturalisation records again but I’m sure it didn’t contain anything useful.
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Carlse
Starting member

United Kingdom
18 Posts

Posted - 24/07/2023 :  15:38:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The estimated birth years on UK census records cover 1871 to 1901. Andrews estimated birth years range from 1837 to 1841. In his naturalisation
papers in 1869 it said he was from Norway, aged 28, occupation seaman, married and living in West Hartlepool. This matches 1871 census giving Stockton Street Stranton, West Hartlepool as his address. On that census he was 30, living with wife Isabella and son Tom. All the following 3 census records match, family-wise. The Home Office naturalisation wording is in strange terms, calling Andrew the memorialist, that he prayeth for a certificate of naturalisation to enable him to join the Royal Naval reserve of seaman. Four men vouched for Andrew, knowing him for 5 years. It’s so annoying his place of birth in Norway was not given. There is no other useful information unfortunately.
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Carlse
Starting member

United Kingdom
18 Posts

Posted - 24/07/2023 :  16:08:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Seem to have lost message I’ve just read from ToreL. My great grandfather was definitely living in Hartlepool in 1871, Stockton Street, Stranton West Hartlepool. The 4 men who supported Andrew’s naturalisation were all living in Hartlepool. Andrew apparently hoped to be able to join the Royal Naval reserve of seaman, he obviously loved the sea. He still worked as a seaman after his marriage, and certainly was a mariner in 1871, before becoming a coal miner. My DNA results show Vestfold og Telemark which also is a good match. Your help has been invaluable, thank you, Regards Carole
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ToreL
Advanced member

Norway
818 Posts

Posted - 24/07/2023 :  19:01:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ToreL

After Jackie suggested that the blotch in the sailors' roll said Hartlepool, I couldnt't read it any other way. Still, I thought it would be good with a second opinion, and posted the record on a forum for handwriting interpretation, with no suggestion that this might be an English port. Still, the answer I got was Hartlepool.

Combining this with the correct year of birth in the later censuses, I no longer see any reason to doubt that we have the right Andrew.


The same responder who confirmed the "Hartlepool" reading, also supplied her reading of the ship and captain's names as Ellida and H C Aas, which provides further confirmation, as the ship Ellida with captain Aas was reported, in a Drammen newspaper, to have arrived in Hartlepool from Drammen on June 15, 1861 (Clipping) while Anders left the ship on July 3 according to the sailors' roll.
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