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cmtodd
Junior member
USA
44 Posts |
 Posted - 01/02/2014 : 20:52:46
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Loose End #2--Where did Ole & family leave from in 1880?
Gunhilda Kristine baptized on 19 Oct 1879 in Meråker but
Trondheim Em. report specifies family lived in Lier at time of emigration in Apr 1880.
Tried Digital Archives database searches but didn't find any relevant records (still not sure I am doing this effectively, however). Also searched individual parish registers.
Q. 1: Any record of Ole leaving Meråker for Lier or America between 1879 & 1880?
Checked Øvre Stjørdal / Meråker parish registers records 1879-1881 (both in official register & copy)
--no indication in Udflyttede list that Ole left parish
(entries are orderly & fairly easy to read. Lots of entries, especially in 1880--33 in '79, 110 in '80, 81 in '81)
Q. 3: Any record of Ole leaving Hegre for Lier or America between 1879 & 1880?
Checked Øvre Stjørdal / Hegra parish register
1879-1881 (official register--no copy for relevant years)
--no indication in Udflyttede list that Ole left parish
(entries are orderly & fairly easy to read. No entries from previous years. 31 entries in 1879; 85 in 1880 & 108 in 1881)
Q. 3: any record of Ole leaving Lier for America in 1880?
Checked Busterud-Lier 1879-1882 official (no copy posted)
--no indication in Indflytteda that Ole came into parish
--no indication in Udflyttede list that Ole left parish
(For 1879-80, the dates in the Opgiven datum. column are often from past years, sometimes 5 or more years earlier. This was also the case in the record that Kåre found for Ole leaving Lier in 1872--it wasn't recorded until 1874. Starting in 1881, things get much better. Few entries from past years in 1881 and almost none in 1882. So there seems to be a pattern of information not being recorded in the church registers in a timely fashion before 1881. Also not as many entries as in Meråker for the target year year of 1880--40 in 1879, 97 in 1880, 91 in 1881.
My thinking at this point--The records in both Hegra and Meråker are well done. Can't know for sure, but given the care with which the church records seem to be recorded, may be more likely that Ole never reported leaving than that minister didn't record data. Never found Thoralf's birth record either despite database search & searching individual church records. May suggest a pattern of not reporting by family. Can't rule out, however, that data for both emigration & Thoralf's birth reported but not recorded in church book.
Data from Lier suggest that data prior to 1881 are not being recorded in a timely manner. Can't rule out that people are just not reporting in a timely manner during this period, but given that the recording situation improves in 1881, it may be a recording problem during this time, not a reporting problem.
Also gave some thought to why Ole might be in Lier in 1880. All of Elen's immediate family (except, perhaps, one brother--Arnt) had emigrated to US by 1874. Ole's family was still in Lier after that per the info Kåre found. Perhaps Ole & family did go back there after Gundhilda's birth to be closer to Ole's family.
As an aside, I have a much better appreciation of Kåre's earlier comment that it was very hard on families that remained in Norway. How hard it must have been for everyone who stayed. Even though emigration certainly isn't easy, at least those who left had the promise of a new, and perhaps better, life. Those who remained had to figure out how to carry on with many fewer people and without those that they loved. How hard it must have been.
At this point, have a feeling that the needed emigration records don't exist. May never be able to tie up this loose end. Any further suggestions of places to search or other things to do?
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2014 : 23:58:58
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Hi.
There must be some datails that do not match!
Ole leaving Lier 1872 for Støren in Sør-Trøndelag county.
Ole married Elen Kirstine in Hegra parish 1876
Christening of Gunhilda Kirstine in Meråker Oct. 19. 1879
Em. from Trondheim April 1880, place of living; LIER.
It was not possible to travel from Meråker to Lier in the wintertime crossing a mountain pass twice, with small children? and returned to Trondheim under 5 months.
The distance (round trip) Trondheim-Lier were at least 1300 Kilometer if you started from Meråker.
Perhaps Ole mentioned Lier because he grew up there, and both of his parents were botn in Lier.
If they against all odds had come to Lier the em. would have taken place from Oslo which is ca 35 Km from Lier.
Kåre
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Edited by - Kåarto on 02/02/2014 00:18:06 |
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cmtodd
Junior member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2014 : 00:49:24
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Thanks, Kåre. That is most helpful information. It didn't make sense to me either that they would live in Lier but go to Trondheim to leave. The only thing I could think of was perhaps Ole had been transferred by the railroad to Lier after Gunhilda was born and Elen wanted to see family again before they left for America.
I'm guessing from your response is that there weren't railroads from Lier to Trondheim back then. I agree there is no way a family with young children could travel twice by foot or wagon between Lier and r/Hegra given the distance & geography.
Also, Elen's immediate family was already in the U.S. So no real family reason to go back to Meråker, unless she wanted to visit extended family.
Would have been nice if there had been a record of his leaving Meråker in the church registers!
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2014 : 01:19:39
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One option I did not know about was the Røros line between Trondheim and Hamar and with horse and cart to Eidsvoll to take the Trunk Line to Oslo and from there to Lier
Lier is rec. as place of home in the em. rec. in Trondheim for the whole family.
If one decides everything is possible, and Ole perhaps still worked for the railroad company and if he traveled alone.
Hopefully tomorrow the problem can be solved.
Time to get some sleep in Norway.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 02/02/2014 01:32:15 |
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cmtodd
Junior member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2014 : 15:52:21
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Thank you, Kåre, for providing so much help. It looks like there may have been railroads for much of the journey, but I'm not sure not all.
The Trunk Line would have gotten them to Eidsvoll.
The link you provided for the Røros Line indicated the following dates for each section:
Hamar - Elverum (Grundset) - 1862
Grundset - Rena (Aamot) - 1871
Rena - Koppang - 1875
Koppang - Røros - 1877
Singsås - Røros - 1876
Singsås - Støren - 1876
Støren - Trondhjem - 1864
The northern & southern sections of the above were joined on 14 Aug 1877 and the full line was officially opened on 13 Oct 1877.
It also says: "The connection southwards from Hamar was with boat over the lake Mjøsa to Eidsvoll, and the Hoved Line to Oslo (Krisiania). The railway connection between Edisvoll and Hamar opened as the Eidsvold-Hamar line in 1880."
I couldn't find an exact date for opening of the Eidsvold-Hamar line. If it was open by the time the family started on their travels, it looks like they technically could go all the way from Oslo to Trondheim by train. How long do you think it would take to travel that distance by train?
If the Eidsvold-Hamar section was not open, then they would have had to take a steamer ship across Lake Mjøsa from Eidsvold to Hamar. Would that have been possible in the winter?
What are the typical winter months in Norway?
I can't imagine traveling such a long distance, even by train, with three young children (one a very young baby). What would have driven them to go north to leave if they did, indeed, reside in Lier at the time of their emigration? I can't think that visiting extended family would be worth such a trip.
So many quesions!
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2014 : 16:51:55
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Less than 5 mths. from Oct. 19. 1879 in Meråker to Trondheim April 14. 1880 can leave so many questions.
I will try to search again in Stjørdal, Meråker and Hegra after dinner.
The railroad Eidsvoll-Oslo was opened 1854 and was Norways first railroad.
Wintertime in Norway, normally Nov-March/April in this part of Norway with variations from year to year.
Lake Mjøsa is covered with ice in the wintertime so the journey from Hamar to Eidsvoll had to be on foot or by horse.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 02/02/2014 17:02:27 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2014 : 18:21:25
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I have not found them in incoming or leaving Meråker, Øvre-Stjørdal, Øvre-Stjørdal/Meråker, Hegra.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 02/02/2014 20:07:23 |
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cmtodd
Junior member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2014 : 00:29:24
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Thank you, Kåre, for all the time you have spent on this and many other aspects of the Torkildson's journey. I am profoundly grateful.
I found the opening data of the Eidsvold-Hamar railway line. It was 8 November 1880. Source: here. So that railroad section was not available to the family before they emigrated.
If Lake Mjøsa is ice-covered and not passable in winter (roughly Nov - Mar/Apr) then that option also wasn't available to them.
I can think of possible reasons for the family to return to Lier (Ole took new job or perhaps Ole's relatives got sick & they wanted to be closer). But I can think of no good reason why the family would go back to Trøndelag to emigrate. Elen's immediate family were all in America by that time, with the possible exception of one brother. I can't believe the family would take the enormous risk of traveling in winter just to visit extended relatives.They could have easily left from Olso. For example, there was a 16 Apr sailing on the S/S Angelo from Christiania to Hull with a possible connection to the S/S Montreal sailing on 22 Apr to Quebec. That is almost their exact route and time frame.
Finally, I could find no record of them coming into Lier during the relevant time (although the somewhat chaotic recording of the Lier parish events during this period makes me hesitant to place great faith in this finding).
Everything I have learned about the family thus far says that they were courageous and willing to take risks. But I don't think they were foolish. I can't imagine them risking the lives of their young children to travel twice between Nord-Trøndelag and Lier in the dead of winter without a desperate reason. And I can think of no good reason for them to do it
At this point, my hypothesis is that Ole & Elen were living in the Nord-Trøndelag area prior to emigration and that either Ole misunderstood what the Em. officer was asking or the Em. officer misunderstood Ole's response, resulting in "Lier" being listed as the residence of the family in error. Perhaps new evidence will emerge at some point to support or refute this idea.
Many thanks, Kåre!
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2014 : 16:40:13
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You are welcome.
Sometimes you face a brick wall in genealogy.
I also believe they em. from Nord-Trøndelag, but it was no problem to get from Hamar to Eidsvoll.
The emigration in Norway was well organized, on Hamar there were enough persons with horse and sleigh taking people to Eidsvoll to supplement their income and returned to Hamar with people going north.
The emigration law of 1869, extended in 1897:
It had to be a written contract between the emig. and the comany approved by the police.
This was to avoid criminals, persons who owe money or had not completed the military service if you were summoned to leave the country.
Ole got "Tilladelse" Permission to emigrate.
A copy Ole Torkildsens em. rec. from the police in Trondheim, his Id, serialnumber, page etc. link
The origin is kept in the archives in Trondheim
Perhaps Oles signature is on the document?
You can send a request and ask for a copy of the origin.
Service is free in Norway.
I wonder if the police asked questions if he really was coming from Lier and accepted his explonation?
Kåre
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Edited by - Kåarto on 03/02/2014 22:45:37 |
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cmtodd
Junior member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2014 : 03:25:41
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Sorry to take so long to send my thanks, Kåre. Had to spend a few days on other things. The information you provided on sleighs was most helpful. I found an interesting entry in a 1909 book called "The boy travellers in northern Europe." It indicated that [presumably about the time the book was written in 1909], the express trains in Norway traveled about 22-24 English miles per hour, with stops at most stations of about 20-30 minutes. Passengers could get off to eat at the stations. (p. 458)
Another passage talked about the travel time by express train from Christiania to Eidsvold (a distance of 42 English miles) being about 2 3/4 hours. (p. 462).
According to a Wikipedia entry on the Røros line that you cited earlier, it is 268 miles from Hamar to Trondheim. If the trains traveled at the same rate on this line as on the Christiania to Eidsvold line, it would take about 18 hours from Hamar to Trondheim. Probably longer if there were more stations to stop at and you had to change trains in various places.
On p. 462, it also talks about the use of sleighs before the Eidsvold-Hamar line opened.
"In winter, when the lake was frozen, sleighs were used to carry passengers between those points [Eidsvold-Hamar], a distance of about thirty miles. There was always a period - when the lake was closing and just before the ice broke up - when neither steamboats nor sleighs were available, and the wagon-roads were next to impassable."
Taken together, these passages seem to imply that Ole & family might have been able to travel by train (and sleigh) from Christiania to Trondheim within a few days. But there may be a period at the end of winter when no travel was possible.
It does seem more possible for them to have made this journey now that I know they could travel most of the way by train. Still a long journey in winter with three young children, however. And I still can't come up with a good reason why the family would do this.
Thanks so much for the information on where to get a copy of his emigration record. It will be interesting to see if it includes any additional information to help with the Lier mystery.
Hope you are having a milder winter in Norway than we are here. Just got another 8 inches (20 cm) of snow and its going to be ten degrees below zero (fahrenheit, -23 Celsius) again with strong winds. This is the 4th major snow storm of the winter & we still have another month or two of winter left. We are all looking forward to spring!
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cmtodd
Junior member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2014 : 18:03:04
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As I was reviewing the earlier posts to see what information I still needed to follow up on, I realized that there is another hypothesis relevant to the Lier entry on the em. report.
Kåre, when you first learned of the information in the em. report, you assumed that the Lier listed on the report was Lierne in Nord-Trøndelag. This makes a lot more sense to me at this point. I think I side-tracked the discussion away from your insightful comment by saying Ole was born in Lier, near Asker.
I searched the digital archives and found that there are no digitized church registers from Lierne for the relevant period. The only ones I could find are:
Lierne/Liern (Nordli) - 1920-1962 only (copy)
Lierne/Nordli - 1920 - 1962 only (copy)
Lierne/Sørli - 1882-1940 (official), 1904-1922 (copy) & 1923-1939 (copy)
That may explain why we haven't found any parish record of Ole's emigration in 1880. Famiysearch.org indicates this group does have microfilms records from Lierne:
--1875 Census
--1900 Census
--Bydebok for Lierne Kommune (not sure of dates),
--Probate records (1703-1815)
--Kirebøker for 1817-1923.
So the relevant church records do exist, they just aren't on digital archives yet. Who knows, perhaps these church records will provide insight into both the em. report entry and Thoralf's birth!
Please let me know if you feel the Lierne parish registers for about 1875-1882 are on digital archives and I've just missed them, or if there is another Internet source for these parish records. If they are not on the Internet, I'll try to get the microfilm through Family Search.
Many thanks for your continuing help on this journey!
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2014 : 18:37:30
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[quote]Originally posted by cmtodd
I searched the digital archives and found that there are no digitized church registers from Lierne for the relevant period. The only ones I could find are:
Lierne/Liern (Nordli) - 1920-1962 only (copy)
Lierne/Nordli - 1920 - 1962 only (copy)
Lierne/Sørli - 1882-1940 (official), 1904-1922 (copy) & 1923-1939 (copy)
So the relevant church records do exist, they just aren't on digital archives yet. /quote]
Here is what there is for Lierne at the digital archives. Often times parishes were part of another parish before they come into their own:
Nord-Trøndelag
Lierne / Lierne (Nordli): 1920-1962, Parish register copy
Lierne / Nordli: 1882-1902, Parish register (official)
Lierne / Sørli: 1882-1904, Parish register (official)
Lierne / Sørli: 1904-1922, Parish register copy
Lierne / Sørli: 1923-1939, Parish register copy
Snåsa / Lierne, Nordli, Sørli: 1865-1881, Parish register (official) |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2014 : 19:15:14
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You are welcome Chris.
My first thought when I read Lier was Lierne in Nord-Trøndelag.
Lierne is north east in Nord-Trøndelag and relatievely far from Meråker.
The church books for Lierne starts 1882 link but was established as independant parish 1871 as Nordli parish and Sørli subparish, earlier I believe Lierne was a sub parish under Snåsa
Tunnsjø chappel in Lierne was consecrated 1876.
Ole is not rec. leaving Nordli/Sørli-Lierne 1880, see right page link
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 07/02/2014 20:46:41 |
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cmtodd
Junior member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2014 : 20:43:24
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Thanks, jkmarler & Kåre. With all your help I'm learning a lot about Norwegian geography and parish registers! Here's what I've pulled together from the wikipedia entries you referenced & the parish register data you found:
1 Jan 1838: Snåsa established
1 Jan 1874: Eastern district, Lierne, separated from Snåsa
1 Jul 1915: Lierne divided into Nordli & Sørli
1 Jan 1964: Nordli & Sørli merged back together under Lierne name
There are four parishes potentially with records from Lierne:
Snåsa
--Snåsa church (est. 1200) - records from 1865-1881 online
Searched these--no em. in or out by Ole; no birth of Thoralf
Nordli
--Nordli Church - est. 1873
--Tunnsjø Chapel - est. 1876
(no records online from period of interest - 1875 - 1881)
Sørli
--Sørli Church, est. 1873
(no records online from period of interest - 1875-1881)
It will be interesting to see what is included in the Lierne Kirkebøkker for 1817-1923 available from Family Search.
Thanks for all your assistance.
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Edited by - cmtodd on 07/02/2014 20:45:30 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2014 : 22:42:09
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| If you use the "old" version of the catalog at familysearch.org you will get a more precise listing of what date and type of records are available per film if you click on "View Film Notes". |
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Inman Line Ships
