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ROBJE
Medium member
Canada
98 Posts |
 Posted - 17/01/2016 : 23:22:49
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...or - more precisely - countries men and women.
I'm glad to have found this site. After fifty years of living in Canada, this Oslo-born 63 year-old has taken to genealogy.
I've been greatly impressed and helped by the digitalized Stats arkivet records and have had a fascinating year of wandering through old church books and censuses.
But questions and topics remain, so I hope to be able to give and get here.
Firstly, for example, my late dad was born in Poland and ended up in Norway after the war. He always said he was sent to Northern Finland with Organization Todt in 1944, but I can find no indication that they were operating there, especially that their alliance with Germany had ended.
So does anybody have any material/thoughts on that possibility, or suggestions how otherwise an 18 year-old Pole ends up in gode, gamble Norge?
Thank you. Mange take.
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 17/01/2016 : 23:45:41
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Hi there, nice to meet you. Not sure I understand the situation. A little quick study tells me that Operation Todt began as an engineering and civil works program of the German government with wide-ranging projects in not only Germany but also German-occupied areas including some projects in Finland. By 1944 97.5% of workers in Operation Todt were prisoners of war and forced laborers from occupied countries. The German war effort was certainly still ongoing in 1944. I am not understanding how it is you might expect the OT "alliance" with Germany to end.
This cursory summary is drawn from nothing more than a brief review in Wikipedia. Like me, most of the contributors in Norway Heritage Forum probably aren't experts on Operation Todt, so maybe you can explain more why it seems to you your dad's story disagrees with the facts. Was he conscripted, or forced labor, or a POW, or Jewish or part Jewish?
The invasion of Poland in 1939 ended with the nation partitioned, and can we presume your dad was living in German occupied territory?
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Edited by - JaneC on 17/01/2016 23:57:23 |
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ROBJE
Medium member
Canada
98 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 00:03:44
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Thank you, JaneC. Yes, I apologize for such an obscure posting, which I hope is forgivable from an old-ish newbie. I've looked about the site, and am awfully impressed with the help and knowledge on display. I hope to contribute.
Meanwhile, dad was Alex Jadach originally, and most likely forced labor in early 1944. (If captured, I think he would have been shot for his youthful forays with the Polish underground.) He said the Norwegian authorities mis-took his papers and inadvertently dropped the 'c' when he registered in Norway.
I only had doubts about his arrival in Norway because I was under the impression Finland had switched alliance to the Allies by early 1944, but I'm probably very wrong. I do know from old photos that he was with the Store Norske Spitsbergen Kulkompani in 1952, and married my mother (Ellen Bjercke) in August of either 1953 or 1954.
My most pressing concern is to find any records left behind which may indicate his actual DOB and parents' names, since I cannot find any record of his birth in Norway.
Another little puzzle in my Norwegian tree is my mother's father, Kristian Arnt Bjercke (born 1896), who died in an Oslo construction accident in 1930. I found his name in a death register, but no record of any funeral, obituary, newspaper story, or tombstone.
Thanks again, JaneC.
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ROBJE
Medium member
Canada
98 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 00:07:19
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SIlly me.
....any record of his birth n Poland......I meant.
Another oops! Already. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 00:31:52
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Excellent, very helpful. Yes, probably forced labor because as of Poland's defeat in 1939 all Polish males age 14 and up were subject to forced labor (again, with caution that this is based on cursory study).
More about the situation, here - a tough one!
link
Kristian Bjercke in census, here, parish is Gamle Aker. No guarantee that is where Ellen married, but it's a place to start. Otherwise all the Oslo parishes can be searched to find her marriage record. It may have a date of birth and birth place and father for Alex
http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01036392116830
Here is Alex Jadah in Oslo address book 1960-1961:
http://arkivverket.no/URN:db_read/db/49298/711/?size=medium&mode=0
Re. Edits:
Check out the icons atop your post. Pen and paper icon let's one edit - the need to do so arises often, for everyone. |
Edited by - JaneC on 18/01/2016 01:00:03 |
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ROBJE
Medium member
Canada
98 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 01:03:12
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Takk, Jane. Yes, I'd seen that as part of my year of digital wandering. Wonderful source.
No, I believe from the one wedding-day photo I've ever seen (taken on a sidewalk), mum Ellen and Alex were married at Raadhuset, if that's possible. It'd make sense, as he would likely have been Catholic, and she was with Sagene Kirke, but somewhat tainted at the time with an earlier illegitimate child by someone else.
A civil marriage, then, or those years' equivalent of such I would think.
And as to Kristian Arnt, it is his untimely and tragic death I am most curious about.
(You see, I find family trees which display only names and dates to be dry...almost dull. I work very hard at trying to flesh a story around mere dates and events, and the date, circumstances, and attendees at Grand-dad Arnt's funeral would go a long way. I found all such information in AFtenposten for my mother's mom, Margit - doubly tragically, she died five months after Kristian Arnt, leaving five young children parentless - but I find but nada for him.)
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 01:39:41
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So what was the date of Kristian's death? There might be two records of his death, one in the death register of the parish church where his funeral was held and the other in the dødfallsprotokol (estate record.) Neither one are likely to be highly detailed but at least give you the facts. Which have you seen?
Okay this child is obviously not your father but perhaps gives you a place to start:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KB2R-KYR
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Edited by - jkmarler on 18/01/2016 01:48:13 |
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ROBJE
Medium member
Canada
98 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 02:05:59
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Doedsfallprotokol is where I found the one lonely handwritten line about Kristian Arnt. (Seems a shame: the way folk are born and registered with all sorts of names, addresses, witnesses, their occupations, etc, but death notices always seem so curt. Almost as if we come in with all sorts of glory and expectations, but toddle off to eternity with but a name and date.) It was April or May, 1930. (I'll check for the precise date.)
Oh...I've tried. FamilySearch is very, very good; but there ain't no Alexander Jadach on it anywhere. Nor on any other heritage sites. All I've been able to find (on geneteka.genelodzy.pl ; which is tough because I am only able to order beer and flirt mildly in Polish) is a Stefan Jadach marrying an Anna Stanislawska in Warszaw in 1921.
I've actually ordered a DNA test in desperate need for more leads.
You're very kind, jk. Appreciate it.
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ROBJE
Medium member
Canada
98 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 02:13:18
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| September 6, 1930, according to what I found, jk. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 02:41:31
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| Well, there are a fair number of Jadach families in US. I did look at the arrivals at Ellis Island and there were a couple of them arriving from Poland.along with a few other places like Galicia etc. Some of the registers tell who they are coming to in US and who is their closest relative left behind. You might get lucky... |
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ROBJE
Medium member
Canada
98 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 04:39:50
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With thanks again, jk; but let's do like my Dad and get away from Poland.
Aside from what happened to my grand-father (Kristian Arnt) after he tumbled off scaffolding and died in 1930 (....where'd they put him; and when?), I have niggling questions languishing on my Norwegian family tree. I've been very diligent with church books and web search sites, but am less successful with deaths. I've a Thore Simonsen who was born in 1843 in Moen, Sel and sired a last child there in 1875. But I have to assume he's still alive, unless convinced otherwise.
I've a great aunt Julie Andersdatter born Jul 1, 1870 in Faaberg, whose photograph I have dated from circa 1898, but can find no further trace of.
I'm hopelessly curious about a sweet-looking, moon faced Thea Marie Jakobsdatter born March 18, 1894 in Sel, who features in three old family album photos taken around 1910 in Oslo. Can't find her after that. (She resembles my daughter, which somewhat explains my quest.)
And I'm perplexed that my church-deacon, obedient, by-the-book Great-Grandaddy Kristian Andersen Flugstad (born 1872) had many children with Thora Thorsdatter (1871; Sel) just before and after their moving to Oslo, but no religious record or marriage certificate of their union seems to exist.
Doesn't make sense.
Nor can I find when and where my Uncle Bjarne Bjercke (oral family history: born 1916) and Aunt Randi Bjercke (reputedly 1920) were born to (evidently) Kristian Arnt Bjercke and Margit Flugstad (both 1896), whose marriage record is also unfindable. I'm working on the theory that they eloped.
I know it seems picky, but I've wandered off and become lost with wrong theories before, and much prefer to rely on facts beyond other family trees.
And, to get back to my first plea here, I'm still anxious to know if any history buffs out there may suggest what path to pursue to find out how and when my Polish-born dad ended up in Noreg.
Free Quebec maple syrup (I make my own) to anyone who can help here.
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 07:29:29
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It might be helpful if you have looked at Digitalarkivet for any of these folks that you post links to the things you've found. That way we won't be wasting time reposting things that you already know.
Here is probably your Kristian A. Flugstad in the 1910 census, in Oslo:
http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01036392158855
The same family in 1900:
http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01037045214286
Burial information at Gravferdsetaten I Oslo:
Gravnr: 22.042.10.010 Nordre gravlund
Christian A. Flugstad
28.02.1872 - 09.10.1956
Gravlagt: 12.11.1956
Thora Flugstad
30.07.1871 - 17.01.1967
Gravlagt: 25.05.1967
anniversary date 2017
#36 might be your Kristian, remains to be seen:
Kildeinformasjon: Buskerud fylke, Modum, Ministerialbok nr. 10 (1865-1876), Fødte og døpte 1872, side 89.
Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=5888&idx_id=5888&uid=ny&idx_side=-86
He is #146:
Kildeinformasjon: Buskerud fylke, Heggen i Modum, Klokkerbok nr. I 7 (1869-1878), Fødte og døpte 1872, side 30.
Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=8499&idx_id=8499&uid=ny&idx_side=-35
#5 probably #36 above with slight nudge on birthdate:
Kildeinformasjon: Oppland fylke, Fåberg i Fåberg, Ministerialbok nr. 8 (1879-1898), Konfirmerte 1887, side 164.
Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=6087&idx_id=6087&uid=ny&idx_side=-160
The family moved from Modum to Faaberg and lived on Flugstad which is why Kristian has a farm name not found in Modum but only found in Faaberg and Eidsvol.
#10 right hand page, leaving Faaberg as an unmarried man in 1894, Thora #9 leaving Faaberg as an unmarried woman in 1893:
Kildeinformasjon: Oppland fylke, Fåberg i Fåberg, Ministerialbok nr. 8 (1879-1898), Utflyttede 1894-1897, side 339.
Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=6087&idx_id=6087&uid=ny&idx_side=-321
_________________________________________________
Possibly Kristian's mother in 1875:
http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01052095000995
not her most likely this one following
Another possible Gina in 1865:
http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01038065001284
A possible for Kristian's father in 1875 he from Buraas Sweden:
http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01052006004838
Another possible for Kristian's father in 1900:
http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01036896001221
_____________________________________________
Here is the transcription of your grandmother's baptism:
Kristian Andersen Flugstad Modum
mentioned in the record of Margit Kristine Andersen Flugstad Modum
Name Kristian Andersen Flugstad Modum
Gender Male
Wife Thora Moen Sele Gudmundsdr
Daughter Margit Kristine Andersen Flugstad Modum
Other information in the record of Margit Kristine Andersen Flugstad Modum from Norway Baptisms
Name Margit Kristine Andersen Flugstad Modum
Gender Female
Birth Date 11 Dec 1896
Christening Date 20 Dec 1896
Christening Place Oslo, Oslo, Norway
Father's Name Kristian Andersen Flugstad Modum
Father's Age 1872
Mother's Name Thora Moen Sele Gudmundsdr
Mother's Age 1871
Citing this Record
"Norway Baptisms, 1634-1927," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWNK-V28 : accessed 18 January 2016), Kristian Andersen Flugstad Modum in entry for Margit Kristine Andersen Flugstad Modum, 11 Dec 1896; citing ; FHL microfilm 1,282,973.
Apparently your grandmother was baptized in one of these two parishes (both are on the same film number cited in the transcription of her baptism)
Item 1: Kirkebøker, 1818-1897
Author: Den Norske kirke. Rikshospitalet og Kvinneklinikken (Oslo)
Item 2, Item 4, Item 3: Kirkebøker, 1880-1922
Author: Den Norske kirke. Sagene menighet (Oslo)
#1062 Margit Kristine parents are styled as married, since Thora is labelled h. meaning hustru or wife:
Kildeinformasjon: Oslo fylke, Rikshospitalet, Dåpsbok nr. K 0004.2 (1895-1897), Fødte og døpte 1896, side 152.
Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=1875&idx_id=1875&uid=ny&idx_side=-154
For reasons that are unclear, the transcriptionist included the underlined information in the baptism transcription which is not found in the original. Kristian's occupation in 1896 is shoemaker.
In which parish registers have you searched for Kristian's and Thora's marriage?
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Edited by - jkmarler on 18/01/2016 16:29:09 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 07:54:32
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Gravnr: 22.020.04.003 Nordre gravlund
Bjarne Bjercke
20.04.1916 - 05.11.1978
Gravlagt: 05.06.1979
Lilly Petra Bjercke
11.01.1916 - 13.03.1998
Gravlagt: 29.09.1998
Festeutløp: 2018
Somebody is, still apparently caring for their graves.
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 10:07:07
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The baptismal record for Nelly Fredrikke is #102.
Parents Kristian Fredrik Bjercke and Marie Arnesen. |
Einar |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 10:11:44
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The baptismal record for:
Dagny Talette is #38.
Parents Fredrik Bjercke and Marie Arentsen.
Bjarne Johan is #14.
Parents Kristian Fredrik Bjercke and Marie Arentsen.
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Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 18/01/2016 10:16:05 |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2016 : 10:20:47
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The baptismal record for Mary Sofie is #15.
Parents Kristian Fredrik Kristiansen Bjerke and Marie Arentsen,Maridalsveien 31. |
Einar |
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