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MarkPeter
Medium member
Australia
98 Posts |
 Posted - 30/04/2019 : 07:34:46
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| Would anyone know why I can’t find a passengers shipping list with a person from a family of ( Swedish NOBILITY ) on any website? His name is Johan Carl Palmstrom who left Kristiansand, Norway in about 1853/55 and came to Australia VIA USA. You wouldn’t think he changed his name to John Smith, etc if he was from a family of Nobility. Thx |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2019 : 08:13:29
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In your other topic you identified your target as Charles Peterson, so here is a possible:
Name Carl J Peterson
Event Type Immigration
Event Date 1853
Event Place Boston, Suffolk, Massachusetts, United States
Gender Male
Age 24
Nationality Sweden
Birth Year (Estimated) 1829
Birth Country Sweden
Ship Name Lexington
Page 2245
Citing this Record
"Massachusetts, Boston Passenger Lists, 1820-1891," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCHN-SWK : 12 March 2018), Carl J Peterson, 1853; citing p. 2245, Ship Lexington, NARA microfilm publication M277 (Washington D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.), roll 045; FHL microfilm 419,939.
One of the dirty little secrets about passenger lists is they were required to file the list of passenger names at their first port of call, not necessarily the port your target may have disembarked at. And for 1814-1905, Norway and Sweden shared a monarch which sometimes allowed a mixing of records on nationality. And a number of vessels actually did depart from Sweden picking up passengers on the way.
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MarkPeter
Medium member
Australia
98 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2019 : 08:39:41
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Ok thx. The only problem is, I can’t find a Carl J Peterson in Australia after 1853.....
I’m searching to see if Charles Peterson is the same man as Johan Carl Palmstrom.
Charles Peterson in Australia came here from New York, USA in 1856 with his wife Ellen Cavanagh. They married in Troy, New York, USA in 1855. They both then came to Australia in 1856. Also on his death certificate in Australia, it has born in Arendal, Norway in 1829. I have only found one Johan Carl Palmstrom in Arendal, Norway Born 1829 and parents were Peder Andreas Palmstrom and Elise Marie Larsdatter/Thomasen. We are pretty sure he changed his name just before entering USA (customs) in 1850/54 or at his marriage in 1855 or just before they got on the ship named the GERTRUDE. I have found that ships passenger list and it says, C Peterson and E Peterson. Not much help.
NOW, another Johan Carl Palmstrom is listed on the www.palmstrom.net website. A family of Nobility started by Johan Mattson Lange and wife Anna Wigen. Johan Carl Palmstrom was States as leaving Norway in about 1854/55 and going to Australia via USA.
So I think, Charles Peterson and Johan Carl Palmstrom of Nobility Family are the same person. I cannot find another man from Arendal, Norway Born in 1829 that could’ve left Norway in about 1850/55, because all others are either married or dead.
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ToreL
Advanced member
Norway
815 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2019 : 11:20:30
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| I don't think it was established in your previous thread that the Johan Carl Palmstrøm who left Kristiansand was of nobility. There was indeed a Swedish nobility family named Palmström, but that doesn't mean that all Palmstrøms stem from nobility. A discussion on a Swedish/Finnish genealogy site strongly suggests that Palmström was also a soldier name. The old Swedish military had a system of assigning more intersting/diverse last names to their soldiers than Hansson and Olsson, in order to better distinguish them, and many soldiers chose to keep these names after leaving the service, and even pass them on to their children. |
Edited by - ToreL on 30/04/2019 11:21:06 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2019 : 12:41:03
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It appears that you want the shipping list information to be more extensive than it is. For most of the time the lists were created, a sketchy, ill-written, ill-spelled list of names is about what you get.
Why can't a C. Peterson = a Carl Peterson= your Charles Peterson if their dates correspond with other developed information?
The Norwegian name is often a malleable thing. Just because your father is sporting an inherited name doesn't mean you are absolutely required. In the classic pattern, if your father's first name is Peter, you are most basically a Peterson or Petersdatter depending on your gender.
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MarkPeter
Medium member
Australia
98 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2019 : 13:02:47
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Ok re - Why can't a C. Peterson = a Carl Peterson= your Charles Peterson if their dates correspond with other developed information?
Is because my Charles Peterson has a birth year as 1829 in Arendal, Norway. But my father remembers his aunt telling him they were originally from Sweden. Also an Olaf/Oluf was mentioned to my father, when he was a child, and Olaf was a Viking. Maybe GGGrandfather. |
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MarkPeter
Medium member
Australia
98 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2019 : 13:06:57
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| Also why isn’t there any trace of a Johan Carl Palmstrom in Australia after 1855. Like the nobility family of Palmstrom mention on the website? www.palmstrom.net. Also a couple of months ago they had VIA USA written near where he went to Australia. No wedding, birth of children baptisms or death certificates. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2019 : 16:37:41
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I see that you have been after this for a long time, your topic from 2004:
http://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1649&SearchTerms=johan,carl,palmstrom
Did you ever get the marriage record from Troy New York?
What record did you have that indicated Johan Carl Palmstrom moved to Kragero in 1854?
It appears that Johan Carl's brother George Nicholai did come to New York City and died there:
Name George N. Palmstrom
Event Type Death
Event Date 23 Feb 1918
Event Place Brooklyn, Kings, New York, United States
Address 102 East 4th St
Residence Place New York City, New York
Gender Male
Age 76
Marital Status Widowed
Race White
Occupation retired
Birth Year (Estimated) 1842
Birthplace Norway
Burial Date 25 Feb 1918
Cemetery Evergreen Cemetery
Father's Name Peter Palmstrom
Father's Birthplace Norway
Mother's Name Elisa M. Knudsen
Mother's Birthplace Norway
Citing this Record
"New York, New York City Municipal Deaths, 1795-1949," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WNP-RZJ : 10 February 2018), George N. Palmstrom, 23 Feb 1918; citing Death, Brooklyn, Kings, New York, United States, New York Municipal Archives, New York; FHL microfilm 1,324,318.
Name George B Palmstrom
Event Type Census
Event Year 1900
Event Place Borough of Brooklyn, Election District 2 New York City Ward 12, Kings, New York, United States
Gender Male
Age 59
Marital Status Widowed
Race White
Race W
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Birth Date Sep 1841
Birthplace Norway
Immigration Year 1881
Father's Birthplace Norway
Mother's Birthplace Norway
Household
Role
Sex
Age
Birthplace
George B Palmstrom Head M 59 Norway
Elise M Palmstrom Daughter F 21 Norway
George Palmstrom Son M 16 New York
Citing this Record
"United States Census, 1900," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MSFK-TFZ : accessed 30 April 2019), George B Palmstrom, Borough of Brooklyn, Election District 2 New York City Ward 12, Kings, New York, United States; citing enumeration district (ED) 167, sheet 19B, family 463, NARA microfilm publication T623 (Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, 1972.); FHL microfilm 1,241,050.
In 1865 George is still in Norway single, living with mother and siblings with a maritime occupation:
001 Elise Marie Palmstrøm 01 58 Arendal - Moder e -
002 Georg Nicolai Palmstrøm 01 24 Arendal - Søn ug Styrmand
003 Elisebeth Mathilde Palmstrøm 01 21 Arendal - Datter ug -
004 Georgine Nicoline Palmstrøm 01 19 Arendal - Datter ug -
In 1885 still at Tyholmen address:
001 Elise Marie Palmstrøm 00 1808 Arendal - - - -
002 Ole Lauritz Ødegaard 00 1838 Aas paa Romerike - - - Guldsmed
003 Elise Mathilde Palmstrøm 00 1844 Arendal - - - Hustru
004 Alfred Ødegaard 00 1866 Arendal mt - - Stud.jur.
005 Peter Andreas Ødegaard 00 1868 Arendal - - - Guldsmed
006 Mathilde Ødegaard 00 1870 Arendal - - - Datter
007 Alma Ødegaard 00 1872 Arendal - - - Datter
008 Paula Ødegaard 00 1874 Arendal - - - Datter
009 Lauritz Ødegaard 00 1875 Arendal - - - Søn
010 Karl Ødegaard 00 1877 Arendal - - - Søn
011 Vega Ødegaard 00 1880 Arendal - - - Datter
012 Carl Nielson 00 1841 Christianstad - - - Guldsmedsvend
013 Cornelia Jonassen 00 1858 Arendal - - - Tjenestepige
And Elise the mother is still alive in 1891:
001 Elise Mathilde Ødegaard 1 1844 Arendal - Familiens overhode e -
002 Elise Marie Palmstrøm 000 1808 Arendal - Moder. e -
003 Alfred Emil Odegård 000 1866 Arendal - Søn ug -
004 Peter Andreas Ødegaard 000 1868 Arendal - Søn ug -
005 Mathilde Eleonore Ødegård 000 1869 Arendal - Datter ug -
006 Anna Theodora Ødegaard 000 1872 Arendal - Datter ug -
007 Paula Josefine Ødegaard 000 1874 Arendal - Datter ug -
008 Lauritz Ødegaard 000 1875 Arendal - Søn ug -
009 Karl Johan Ødegård 000 1877 Arendal - Søn - -
010 Vega Ødegård 000 1880 Arendal - Datter - -
011 Halvard Hanestad 000 1864 Lillehammer - Besøgende ug -
012 Fredrik Severin Andersen 000 1853 Arendal - Familiens overhode g -
013 Karen Marie Andersen 000 1854 Porsgrund - Hustru g -
014 Manghild Andersen 000 1884 Arendal - Datter - -
015 Veronica Andersen 000 1886 Arendal - Datter - -
016 Maren Severine Andersen 000 1887 Arendal - Datter - -
017 Fredrikke Andersen 000 1889 des. Arendal - Datter - -
These appear to be some people of some means. Perhaps since your questions have endured for at least 15 years, it might be beneficial to see if there are any estate papers for the father Peter and for the mother Elise to see if Johan Carl is mentioned or Charles is mentioned in either case? |
Edited by - jkmarler on 30/04/2019 17:15:49 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9200 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2019 : 22:14:04
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quote:
Would anyone know why I can’t find a passengers shipping list with a person from a family of ( Swedish NOBILITY ) on any website? His name is Johan Carl Palmstrom who left Kristiansand, Norway in about 1853/55 and came to Australia VIA USA. You wouldn’t think he changed his name to John Smith, etc if he was from a family of Nobility. Thx
Maybe he was never a passenger on a ship but rather a sailor. Back in your earlier post in 2019, ToreL wrote.
"Especially this early there are lots of cases where emigrants don't show up on passenger lists, and Johan Carl in particular may not have left with a passenger ship at all. I have noticed that his two younger brothers Georg Nicolai and Peter Martin both come up as first mates on several occasions, and it appears that Peter in fact owned his own ship for a period. This would be later than the time of Johan Carl's departure, but it still shows that the family were close to the shipping community and may have found other ways to travel than to buy a ticked with passenger ship. "
If he left Norway on a ship as a sailor he will not show up on a passenger list. |
Edited by - AntonH on 30/04/2019 22:14:58 |
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MarkPeter
Medium member
Australia
98 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2019 : 23:43:23
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| Ok thx again lyndal40. I just know 100% that the death certificate in Australia states that he was born in Arendal, Norway in 1829. So, I think Charles Peterson was the Johan Carl Palmstrom from the nobility family of Johan Mattson Lange. Maybe the other JC Palmstrom from Arendal, Norway Born in the same year DID die in 1855. |
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MarkPeter
Medium member
Australia
98 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2019 : 23:59:08
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Thx all. Also a note that In 1885 still at Tyholmen address:
001 Elise Marie Palmstrøm 00 1808 Arendal - - - -There was a Lorentz Palmstrom from the nobility family, staying in the exact same unit block. |
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MarkPeter
Medium member
Australia
98 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2019 : 00:07:12
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Hi jkmarler,
Did you ever get the marriage record from Troy New York?
“No, the church was burnt down after a massive fire in the city of Troy, New York”
What record did you have that indicated Johan Carl Palmstrom moved to Kragero in 1854? “I will get back to you re this question”
It appears that Johan Carl's brother George Nicholai did come to New York City and died there:
“ No, Sorry he was born in 1848 not 1842” |
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MarkPeter
Medium member
Australia
98 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2019 : 00:09:12
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Also, where would I find the estate papers for the father Peter and for the mother Elise to see if Johan Carl Pedersen/Palmstrom?
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9200 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2019 : 00:29:03
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quote:
It appears that Johan Carl's brother George Nicholai did come to New York City and died there:
“ No, Sorry he was born in 1848 not 1842”
Mark you have confused Georg Nicolai the brother who was born in 1841 and Georgine the sister who was born about 1847. Jackie has the right person, the bother of Johan Carl. Here from your earlier postings.
Siblings:
Peter Martin 1833 - 1870
Gurine Laurethe 1831 - 1838
Marie Cathrine 1836 -
Gurine Lsurette 1839 -
Georg Nicolai Peter 1841 -
Elise Mathilde 1844 -
Georgine Nicoline 1847
Here is Georg Nicolai and wife in the 1875 Norwegian Census. Another thing to note is that the census lists him as being on a voyage to New Orleans at the time of the census.
1875
Georg or George Palmstrom moved to New York with his wife and child about 1881 or so. They had an additional child George Jr. inn New York. His wife Hansine died shortly thereafter and Georg was a widower for the 1900 Census.
Note the daughter Elise M in the 1900 Census posted by Jackie above. Here is the baptism record for Elise Marie. See number 66.
#66
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Edited by - AntonH on 01/05/2019 02:26:33 |
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MarkPeter
Medium member
Australia
98 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2019 : 00:43:18
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Riksarkivet
Statsarkivet Oslo
Johan Carl Palmstrom moved from Arendal to Kragero, Telemark County In April 1854 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2019 : 02:21:36
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkPeter
Also, where would I find the estate papers for the father Peter and for the mother Elise to see if Johan Carl Pedersen/Palmstrom?
Some are online. But when I posted I was unaware the father's estate papers were mentioned in one of your other topics. Tore found that there was no mention of Johan Carl in the father's. Could look to see if situation was better in mother's. She probably died between 1891 and 1900 after 1900 since she is listed in the 1900 census https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01037187004231
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Edited by - jkmarler on 01/05/2019 03:08:53 |
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Mystery of Johan Carl Palmstrom
