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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
 Posted - 03/12/2013 : 02:11:56
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| Kristian Danielson Strømme would have been the uncle to the four children of Alfred. Conceivable that they or their children would know the story about their uncle Kristian dying in an accident (even though he was thought to be in America)--Maybe even have pictures of Kristian... |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2013 : 02:20:15
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Yes and/or stories of an uncle who went to England....
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Edited by - JaneC on 03/12/2013 02:21:20 |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2013 : 06:00:28
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Fingers crossed Jane.
I thank-you and Jackie for your recent input. You too Kåarto. |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
Edited by - jungfigh on 03/12/2013 06:02:14 |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2013 : 22:49:27
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2013 : 23:05:30
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From the farmhistory book "Voldasoga", volume 2, p. 162:
Kristian: "travelled to America, died in an accident in 1918"
Ananias: "married and lived in England".
Daniel Johannes Danielssen Strømme from no. 4-10, b. 21 Sep 1854, d. 28 Nov 1942, married 08 Jul 1877 to Johanne Gurine Ananiasdatter from Åmelfotsætra (1-8), b. 21 Apr 1854, d. 17 Aug 1900, lived here some years, then moved to Vågan in Lofoten in 1884.
Children:
1 Daniel Andreas, b. 01 May 1878, d. 06 Dec 1898, worker at a mechanical workshop.
2 Ananias Johannes, b. 13 Feb 1880, d. ?, travelled to England, married and lived there.
3 Kristian Elias, b. 02 Nov 1882, d. 1918, travelled to America.
4 Peder Matias Strømme, b. 10 Oct 1885, d. ?, married to Petra Hellandshamn, lived at Ålesund.
5 Gustav Strømme, b. 08 Jun 1888, d. ?, married 06 Oct 1914 to (Lovise) Bergljot Antonsd. Schei from Mosjøen, d. 15 Jul 1890, d. ?, lived in Molde.
6 Jenny Lovise Strømme, b. 10 Dec 1890, d. 31 Mar 1915.
7 Robert Johan Strømme, b. 09 Jul 1894, d. ?, married to Ida Sefland from Ålesund, lived at Ålesund.
8 Alfred Strømme, b. 13 Nov 1896, see Naustvegen 2, Øyra (16-2).
9 Dina Amanda, b. 23 Nov 1899, d. ?, married 28 Jul 1918 to Peder Anderssen Orvik from Bolsøy, b. 1893, d. ?, lived at Fugelset in Molde.
Daniel Johannes and Johanne Gurine later came to Plassebruk under Nilsgarden, Kile (16-1). Daniel Johannes later married again, see Naustvegen 2, Øyra (16-1).
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Edited by - jwiborg on 05/12/2013 23:33:03 |
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David Yaw
Medium member
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 10:18:26
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quote:
Originally posted by jwiborg
From the farmhistory book "Voldasoga", volume 2, p. 162:
Kristian: "travelled to America, died in an accident in 1918"
Ananias: "married and lived in England".
Daniel Johannes Danielssen Strømme from no. 4-10, b. 21 Sep 1854, d. 28 Nov 1942, married 08 Jul 1877 to Johanne Gurine Ananiasdatter from Åmelfotsætra (1-8), b. 21 Apr 1854, d. 17 Aug 1900, lived here some years, then moved to Vågan in Lofoten in 1884.
Children:
1 Daniel Andreas, b. 01 May 1878, d. 06 Dec 1898, worker at a mechanical workshop.
2 Ananias Johannes, b. 13 Feb 1880, d. ?, travelled to England, married and lived there.
3 Kristian Elias, b. 02 Nov 1882, d. 1918, travelled to America.
4 Peder Matias Strømme, b. 10 Oct 1885, d. ?, married to Petra Hellandshamn, lived at Ålesund.
5 Gustav Strømme, b. 08 Jun 1888, d. ?, married 06 Oct 1914 to (Lovise) Bergljot Antonsd. Schei from Mosjøen, d. 15 Jul 1890, d. ?, lived in Molde.
6 Jenny Lovise Strømme, b. 10 Dec 1890, d. 31 Mar 1915.
7 Robert Johan Strømme, b. 09 Jul 1894, d. ?, married to Ida Sefland from Ålesund, lived at Ålesund.
8 Alfred Strømme, b. 13 Nov 1896, see Naustvegen 2, Øyra (16-2).
9 Dina Amanda, b. 23 Nov 1899, d. ?, married 28 Jul 1918 to Peder Anderssen Orvik from Bolsøy, b. 1893, d. ?, lived at Fugelset in Molde.
Daniel Johannes and Johanne Gurine later came to Plassebruk under Nilsgarden, Kile (16-1). Daniel Johannes later married again, see Naustvegen 2, Øyra (16-1).
Ananias is an unusual name in UK - couldn't find a matching marriage record for an Ananias 1898 - 1920. Ditto for a Danielsen/son nor a Stromme. First marriage/birth records for surname Stromme only appear ca. 1940
Similarly, can't find matches in the 1901 and 1911 England & Wales census.
What do we know about when the Voldasoga farm history book was formulated ?? Sounds unlikely, but Is it possible fading memories confused the destinations of Ananias and Kristian ?? Do we find a marriage or death event in the USA which might clarify ?? |
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David Yaw
Medium member
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 10:55:25
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quote:
Originally posted by jwiborg
Derek, I summarise here the searches we did "off line" so future contributors will see what avenues have been explored :
1. Kent County Council registrars. They could not advise what "procedure" was in place in the 1920's for issue of death certificates in cases of people lost at sea
2. Government Records Office Southport stated they would only have issued a death certificate based on a doctor's certificate having examined body of deceased and giving date, place and cause of death. While we find a GRO record for his marriage to Maud in 1903, we are unable to find a record for Cristian in GRO death record index.
3. Maritime & Coast Guard Agency, Cardiff. Hold no records of individual seamen, nor of formal inquiries into wrecked vessels.
4. National Maritime Museum, Greenwich. Hold no records of individual seamen, nor of formal inquiries into wrecked vessels
5. City Archives, Southampton. They have now digitised records of formal (Board of Trade) inquiries into vessels damaged or lost at sea. They records for 1920 have nothing for the Campanula - either there was no formal inquiry, or if there was the record has not survived.
6. Crew List Index Project CLIP. A few crew lists and agreements are held at Kew, while others are held at the Memorial University, Newfoundland. CLIP website does not throw up any crew records for Campanula.
7. National Archives, Kew. I went through the BT334/74 and BT334/80 records. As we suspected, these are simply the registers which record the deaths of seamen with very basic details of name, nationality, place of birth and residence. The deaths in the loss of the Campanula on 28 January are not recorded until March 1920 - presumably the delay was due to the length of time to realise the vessel was missing, that she was lost and the administrative process of forwarding that info to the authorities and them then entering it into the register. Note Christian's nationality given here as British, birthplace Walden.
One of the specialists at Kew confirmed in these circumstances, this register of deceased seamen is the formal death record - no separate death certificate would have been issued by GRO.
I also went back over the BT349 records for individual seamen searching for Christian's merchant marine service record - no luck.
Finally, I also looked at National Archives register MT25/85, which records vessels lost as a result of enemy action. The record for the Campanula implies she struck a mine - the other records on the page indicate that fishing vessels striking mines, or indeed trawling them up, was more frequent than one might suppose - three UK registered fishing vessels were lost from this cause in the North Sea in January 1920 alone.
But unfortunately bottom line in all this - no further clues as to Cristian's birth in Norway, son of a carpenter, with forename Donald |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 13:28:40
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quote:
Originally posted by jwiborg
From the farmhistory book "Voldasoga", volume 2, p. 162:
Kristian: "travelled to America, died in an accident in 1918"
Ananias: "married and lived in England".
Daniel Johannes Danielssen Strømme from no. 4-10, b. 21 Sep 1854, d. 28 Nov 1942, married 08 Jul 1877 to Johanne Gurine Ananiasdatter from Åmelfotsætra (1-8), b. 21 Apr 1854, d. 17 Aug 1900, lived here some years, then moved to Vågan in Lofoten in 1884.
Children:
1 Daniel Andreas, b. 01 May 1878, d. 06 Dec 1898, worker at a mechanical workshop.
2 Ananias Johannes, b. 13 Feb 1880, d. ?, travelled to England, married and lived there.
3 Kristian Elias, b. 02 Nov 1882, d. 1918, travelled to America.
4 Peder Matias Strømme, b. 10 Oct 1885, d. ?, married to Petra Hellandshamn, lived at Ålesund.
5 Gustav Strømme, b. 08 Jun 1888, d. ?, married 06 Oct 1914 to (Lovise) Bergljot Antonsd. Schei from Mosjøen, d. 15 Jul 1890, d. ?, lived in Molde.
6 Jenny Lovise Strømme, b. 10 Dec 1890, d. 31 Mar 1915.
7 Robert Johan Strømme, b. 09 Jul 1894, d. ?, married to Ida Sefland from Ålesund, lived at Ålesund.
8 Alfred Strømme, b. 13 Nov 1896, see Naustvegen 2, Øyra (16-2).
9 Dina Amanda, b. 23 Nov 1899, d. ?, married 28 Jul 1918 to Peder Anderssen Orvik from Bolsøy, b. 1893, d. ?, lived at Fugelset in Molde.
Daniel Johannes and Johanne Gurine later came to Plassebruk under Nilsgarden, Kile (16-1). Daniel Johannes later married again, see Naustvegen 2, Øyra (16-1).
Jan Peter, Kåre, Einar, how does one gain access to dødfallsprotokol records which haven't been posted online at the Digitalarkivet?
I just checked the probate records for Møre og Romsdal listed at familysearch and find the only record mentioned dates from 1700s when Sunnmøre was part of a larger clerical judicial district based in Bergen. At the Digitalarkivet the dates of the probate records don't cover 1900 (when Kristian Elias' mother died) and 1942 (when Kristian's father died) and even 1898 (when Kristian's elder unmarried brother died). The dødsfallprotokol for the parents might contain information about Kristian's whereabouts, information which might tend to rule him in or out. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 14:10:04
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Derek,
The aunty who had the journal in which was written the name of the place of Cristian's origin--you handled her estate settlement but were you the informant on her death certificate? If you weren't the informant perhaps the person who was also knew of the origins of her father and reported it on her death certificate.
Which funeral home handled the service for your aunt? In US funeral homes often collect all sorts of unexpected information--do they in Britain?
Did this aunt have any children with whom she might have shared family information? |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 16:49:20
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quote:
Originally posted by jkmarler
Here is another one for the wall, way off the wall. #49 Kristian Elias Danielson b 2 Nov 1882 son of Daniel Danielson and Johanne Ananiasdtr, living on Strømme:
Source information: Møre og Romsdal county, Volda in Volda, Parish register copy nr. 511C03 (1864-1884), Birth and baptism records 1882, page 298.
Permanent pagelink: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=15961&idx_id=15961&uid=ny&idx_side=-269
The father's occupation of strandsitter is, if I remember correctly, a coast watcher like a lighthouse keeper, but not a carpenter.
#39 Kristian Elias Danielsen confirmation:
Source information: Møre og Romsdal county, Volda in Volda, Parish register copy nr. 511C04 (1884-1903), Confirmation records 1898, page 243.
Permanent pagelink: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=6477&idx_id=6477&uid=ny&idx_side=-233
Here the father is with many of his family in 1875 on Strømme:
http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=6&filnamn=f71519&gardpostnr=689&merk=689#ovre
The parents of Kristian Elias marriage #17:
Source information: Møre og Romsdal county, Volda in Volda, Parish register copy nr. 511C03 (1864-1884), Marriage records 1877, page 35.
Permanent pagelink: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=15961&idx_id=15961&uid=ny&idx_side=-36
Here is Daniel Strømme in 1900 with occupation defined as stenarbeider and snedker (carpenter) , Kristian is not at home,
http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=2&filnamn=f01519&gardpostnr=494&merk=494#ovre
Here is Daniel Strømme & family in 1910:
http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01036754002642
The above is a review of the family in question. This is such a long thread, it may help to have this information handy.
The question was asked: what is the source of the information about Ananais Johannes and Kristian Elias, in the Voldasoga book?
"Ananias Johannes, b. 13 Feb 1880, d. ?, travelled to England, married and lived there."
"Kristian Elias, b. 02 Nov 1882, d. 1918, travelled to America."
Correct me if I'm wrong Jan Peter, but I think the book you meant must be one in a series of four titled "Volda-Soga 1800 - 1945" by Jostein Nerbøvik. Book 2 is "Volda-Soga: Holmgang med havet 1838–1914" published in 1997.
This work joins others by the same author:
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jostein_Nerb%C3%B8vik
We can guess that the information does not come from personal memories or personal family records of the author.
More about the book:
http://www2.hivolda.no/ahf/Voldasoge/soge1.htm
Long ago a person on this link offered to do look ups in this book. Surely copies must be available elsewhere as well.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-NORDIC/1997-08/0872805250
I haven't been following this thread too closely, but has the Bygdebok for Volda by Arnfinn Kjelland, Olav Myklebust, and Gunnar Andenes been discussed? It's a long thread...
Very possible the two Strømme brothers got inadvertently muddled in the Volda-Soga, and it was actually Kristian who went to England.
I haven't found in the USA a perfect match for Kristian or for the other brother but tracking each candidate is a daunting task. Better to check the Volda-Soga sources.
One possibility is that a family member or pastor or another person submitted information to Nerbøvik - and goofed. Information is only as good as the informant.
http://bokelskere.no/forlag/volda-kommune/843/
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Edited by - JaneC on 06/12/2013 17:24:39 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 19:47:30
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Yes this topic is voluminous. I'm not sure anyone had a copy of the Volda soge books you have linked to, Jane, to volunteer to look into. Below are the books which have been mentioned:\
1, Busetnadssoga for Volda, Volume 2 Folkestad, Kilsfjorden, Bjørkedalen, by Olav Myklebust, Eldar Høidal, Arnfinn Kjelland, published 2004 &+
2. The earlier bygdebøker was a series of 3 volumes published in 1971 titled Volda-soga I, II gardar og slekter, III written by Per Årviknes.
I found in the link you supplied one reference in one paragraph containing the words Strømme and Straume, but my Norwegian is not good enough to be certain what the paragraph or indeed the whole book is about. It appears to be a more general history about some aspect of Volda and perhaps there are details that might be useful in the search, just don't know.
The family tree that was posted earlier made reference to the details about the 2 brothers, Kristian and Ananias. The author of the family page said his source was the Busetnadssoga for Volda. This is nearly identical to the information about the brothers in the 1971 bygdebøker with the slight variation that Kristian died in an accident. So the information was likely repeated in the "new" bygdebøk from what was publsihed in 1971.
I suspect, but do not know for certain, that the source for at least some of the information about the brothers is probably in the parents' dødsfallprotokol records. My small experience with these records indicates that often the place names of locations of potential heirs are given. Some times its only general as in saying they are in US or others
more specifically Oslo. Often there is also a "source" person given. (In the case of my great great grandfather the informant on his record was his brother-in-law.)
Good that there are 2 reasonably thorough people looking in US for Kristian and neither have been able to find him there. Likewise I've also taken a stab in the British records for Ananias Johannes Danielsen Strømme but not found anyone who appears to be him. |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 21:37:35
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quote:
Jan Peter, Kåre, Einar, how does one gain access to dødfallsprotokol records which haven't been posted online at the Digitalarkivet?
I just checked the probate records for Møre og Romsdal listed at familysearch and find the only record mentioned dates from 1700s when Sunnmøre was part of a larger clerical judicial district based in Bergen. At the Digitalarkivet the dates of the probate records don't cover 1900 (when Kristian Elias' mother died) and 1942 (when Kristian's father died) and even 1898 (when Kristian's elder unmarried brother died). The dødsfallprotokol for the parents might contain information about Kristian's whereabouts, information which might tend to rule him in or out.
More and more of the probate registers are not online, the intention is to get them online within a "few" years but not as searchable.
That will come later.
All this is mostly based on volunteers, but I have read that the probate registers are prioritized, but one need unfortunately to be patient
Most of the doc. in the Archives are not online, only in Oslo there are ca 126 000 shelf meter (2009) plus 8 more archives with ca 120 000 shelf meter.
There is a 80 years rule in Norway for bap. rec. online, most likely (I am not sure) the probetregisters have the same rule.
I will try to search for "Dødsfall protokoller" later.
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Edited by - Kåarto on 06/12/2013 22:30:32 |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2013 : 05:38:43
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quote:
Originally posted by jwiborg
Thank-you Jan Peter for the posting of the Southampton document. |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2013 : 05:48:10
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quote:
Originally posted by jkmarler
Derek,
The aunty who had the journal in which was written the name of the place of Cristian's origin--you handled her estate settlement but were you the informant on her death certificate? If you weren't the informant perhaps the person who was also knew of the origins of her father and reported it on her death certificate.
Which funeral home handled the service for your aunt? In US funeral homes often collect all sorts of unexpected information--do they in Britain?
Did this aunt have any children with whom she might have shared family information?
Good morning Jackie,
1. My Aunt died in an elderly persons home being placed there at the age of 99. She didn't last long. We had planned a 100th birthday party (and telegram from Her Majesty) but instead we arranged her funeral. Her death was reported by the Matron of the home. The staff knew very little of my Aunt's antecedents.
2. As far as I'm aware UK funeral Directors are only aware of the deceased what they are told by the family. Not much in her case.
3. Aunt Marge was a childless spinster all of her life and had no known children.
Very negative all this I know. |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2013 : 05:51:42
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quote:
Originally posted by David Yaw
quote:
Originally posted by jwiborg
Derek, I summarise here the searches we did "off line" so future contributors will see what avenues have been explored :
1. Kent County Council registrars. They could not advise what "procedure" was in place in the 1920's for issue of death certificates in cases of people lost at sea
2. Government Records Office Southport stated they would only have issued a death certificate based on a doctor's certificate having examined body of deceased and giving date, place and cause of death. While we find a GRO record for his marriage to Maud in 1903, we are unable to find a record for Cristian in GRO death record index.
3. Maritime & Coast Guard Agency, Cardiff. Hold no records of individual seamen, nor of formal inquiries into wrecked vessels.
4. National Maritime Museum, Greenwich. Hold no records of individual seamen, nor of formal inquiries into wrecked vessels
5. City Archives, Southampton. They have now digitised records of formal (Board of Trade) inquiries into vessels damaged or lost at sea. They records for 1920 have nothing for the Campanula - either there was no formal inquiry, or if there was the record has not survived.
6. Crew List Index Project CLIP. A few crew lists and agreements are held at Kew, while others are held at the Memorial University, Newfoundland. CLIP website does not throw up any crew records for Campanula.
7. National Archives, Kew. I went through the BT334/74 and BT334/80 records. As we suspected, these are simply the registers which record the deaths of seamen with very basic details of name, nationality, place of birth and residence. The deaths in the loss of the Campanula on 28 January are not recorded until March 1920 - presumably the delay was due to the length of time to realise the vessel was missing, that she was lost and the administrative process of forwarding that info to the authorities and them then entering it into the register. Note Christian's nationality given here as British, birthplace Walden.
One of the specialists at Kew confirmed in these circumstances, this register of deceased seamen is the formal death record - no separate death certificate would have been issued by GRO.
I also went back over the BT349 records for individual seamen searching for Christian's merchant marine service record - no luck.
Finally, I also looked at National Archives register MT25/85, which records vessels lost as a result of enemy action. The record for the Campanula implies she struck a mine - the other records on the page indicate that fishing vessels striking mines, or indeed trawling them up, was more frequent than one might suppose - three UK registered fishing vessels were lost from this cause in the North Sea in January 1920 alone.
But unfortunately bottom line in all this - no further clues as to Cristian's birth in Norway, son of a carpenter, with forename Donald
Good morning David,
Thank-you so much for this summary of your actions In Cristian's case and your continuing help. |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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Christain Tromm
