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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
 Posted - 21/10/2014 : 10:23:25
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Thank-you NancyB,
I will make inquiries...to me our results seem conflicting...therefore I will go back to source for a 'belt & braces' explanation. |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2014 : 13:01:41
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Hi Derek, I don't know what "belt and braces" means but I will look it up. Sounds good though.
The UK lab 11 marker test confirmed that Finn and Frank share a significant portion of Y-DNA but it does not pinpoint where along the paternal lines that their Y-DNA occurred in the same man. The Y-DNA trail may lead back in time from cousin, to earlier cousin, to earlier cousin, for any unspecified number of generations. The test predicted a 95% probability that Frank's line and Finn's line intersect somewhere, but that could be in the life of some man who lived before genealogical time.
The second test at FTDNA predicts the same, but is more specific about time frames. Going back 24 generations, the test predicts a 96.96% probability that Frank's and Finn's shared ancestor lived at this point or earlier. |
Edited by - JaneC on 21/10/2014 13:08:01 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2014 : 14:08:14
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Hi Nancy, good to hear from you again. Your bottom line message seeks to be you'd recommend testing more Y-DNA markers and also adding an autosomal test.
About William, that is such a different situation, since the starting point is no paper trail and no co-conspirator with whom to test. The Y-DNA test only tells you what your Y-DNA is. It doesn't tell you the names of people who carry it. If - if - a traditional surname pattern has occurred, then wearing a surname is like wearing your Y-DNA badge on your sleeve, in a male-to-male line. A Smith boy has a Smith father who has a Smith father who has a Smith father and on and on. That is the same trail of people who will carry the same Y-DNA. The plethora of surname projects are fine for people who fit into that scenario, but by and large I find the emphasis on surnames to be rather annoying, as it kind of misdirects so many people and excludes many others who carry Y-DNA that is not tied to a tidy surname string.
I did not follow your point about adding aut
osomal DNA except the general principle that the more info one has, the better. You touched on that only briefly. Maybe you'll say more about that. I have some library books on DNA in genealogy, so I'll also study that some more. And maybe Jan Peter will bring in the advice of his contact?
About GedMatch, again that would be a way to seek random unknown people who are matches and have uploaded there, but just to clarify, you are not saying that maneuver will immediately shed light on what is Frank's specific relationship to Finn. One thing I've read about GedMatch is that the data may be flawed, as there are no controls on who uploads what. Similar to family trees online, one would find a range of credibility. At the low end would be people manually data and making typos. Does that fit with what you know? |
Edited by - JaneC on 21/10/2014 14:27:31 |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2014 : 14:21:01
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I have had some experts looking into these figures, and their response were not very positive.
Having the same great-grandfather in a direct male line, he would expect a 37/37, 36/37, or at least a 35/37 match to be more realistics. That was his thoughts, and he stressed that it was his personal thoughts.
Another comment was that the results didn't look ambiguous. After the Y-37 test it has been fairly well documented that there is a very little chance that there is a close relationship between the two individuals.
FT-DNA predicts opportunity affinity for barely 4% within 4 generations, and we're here talking about just three generations. Thus, it is unlikely, but not impossible, that the two are relatives.
FT-DNA believes therefore it is more than 96% chance that there is not a close relationship. If that is not enough to convince, so is Y-67 next.
I'm a bit surprized of this latest DNA-test, 'cause I was pretty sure we had the right guy...  |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2014 : 14:25:18
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I was very surprised at the low match we saw at four generations.
Super helpful, Jan Peter.
I have looked again at Nancy's post and revised my interpretation of her bottom line message, to say one could expand the search, using DNA to identify random, unknown others. I was too focused on the Frank-Finn pair to clearly hear that. |
Edited by - JaneC on 21/10/2014 14:50:14 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2014 : 15:01:07
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| Okay so find a male anybody born 2 Nov 1882 in a place called Volden.... |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2014 : 15:14:57
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quote:
Originally posted by jkmarler
Okay so find a male anybody born 2 Nov 1882 in a place called Volden....
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2014 : 15:34:33
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Well, I was being sarcastic, because as we all know, there is no one else with that birthdate in Volden.
Not to put it too indelicately, we are most sure who our mothers are but less sure who our fathers are.
Years ago my mother worked on an adoption search in which the adoptee had received her actual court documents. This was before the days of DNA testing. Two men were named as possible fathers because the mother reported that she had been with each at the time the child was conceived and she wasn't sure. |
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NancyB
Medium member
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2014 : 23:16:45
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I'm not sure where to start, but here goes. I personally don't see any value in looking at matches below 37 markers. If I am understanding the results from the UK test on page 43 correctly, basically it compared Finn and Frank at 12 markers and reported they have the same paternal haplogroup. So do tons of other men! You really need a test that is going to give you names and genetic distance of your matches comparing at least 37 markers. FamilyTreeDNA's Y-DNA test does that. As I continued reading, I see that Frank and Finn did the 37-marker test and are a Step 4 match. I would not spend money on a 67-marker test. Frank and Finn will not match any closer. I cannot think of anything to be gained.
I would recommend both upgrade to the Family Finder autosomal test at FTDNA. Autosomal DNA is a whole different animal. It's on all chromosomes except the XY sex chromosomes, and is passed down from father and mother. IF Finn and Frank match within 5 or 6 generations, they should show up as a match on the Family Finder test. It's hard to say whether or not they will, but it's definitely worth a look. (No new saliva sample needed. Just a $99 upgrade for the Family Finder test.)
About William's story, he had been searching his paper trail for 35 years. It turns out the birth mother gave false information on just about everything except her birth date and birth place. DNA was the breakthrough. Y-DNA identified the Pierce surname; however, that did NOT turn out to be the correct surname. We are convinced that William is genetically a Pierce, but for reasons yet to be discovered, his great grandfather had the surname of Hall (not the real name). We have learned that no one in the Hall family has been able to get beyond this great grandfather in their research. So the great grandfather is no doubt the Pierce who slipped into the Hall family.
We are not sorry we started with Y-DNA testing for William, but we would not have found his birth parents without taking the next step of autosomal testing. William's closest match on that test was predicted to be a first or second cousin. (The match happens to also be Step 1 Y-DNA match, and he turned out to be a first cousin once removed.) We then started researching a new paper trail--that of this first/second cousin match (who was deceased), and that's how we found William's birth mother and father.
I am not aware of issues with GedMatch. I have found it to be a wonderful DNA tools site that may identify closer matches who tested at a different company. In the case being discussed here, yes, my thought was that there just might be more clues out there with others who have tested. It's free, so nothing lost if nothing is found.
As a side note, I did my own DNA test with FTDNA, hoping it might shed some light on my Norwegian ancestry and the elusive Betsy Johnson. I have learned a ton about my Finnish ancestry, but so far nothing concrete on the Norwegian side. |
NancyB |
Edited by - NancyB on 21/10/2014 23:20:46 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 22/10/2014 : 01:39:45
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Okay what does this line mean?
"Finn Strømme and Mr. Frank Thompson did not share a common ancestor in the last (box) 1 generations."
It appears that you can insert a different number in the box or in some other way "refine" the results. We know they have no connection in one generation, their connector would be in 3 generations back that is Kristian's father Daniel. |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 22/10/2014 : 10:50:18
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I thank-you all for your views and contributions:
I have been in touch with FTDNA earlier to-day and asked for a layman's answer to their replies...fingers crossed..! |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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FrankTompson
Starting member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
Posted - 25/10/2014 : 22:31:38
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Thanks to all as usual for your invaluable contributions, in particular Nancy B – a new set of eyes always welcome!
I have waited till the dust has settled a bit to respond and have picked out the key points (italicized) as I see them and comment below:
Jane C- I am curious what happens when the value of "1 generation" is changed to 5.
I didn’t include these in my original posting in an effort to keep things simple. However, they are now shown below.
Someone may wish to comment on the difference in distance values although I don’t think it actually affects the final outcome.
the possibility of a non-paternal event always exists
Yes, there is that possibility which I had never thought about but it can’t be discounted. My personal take is that while I may be influenced by the outcome I want to see rather than the DNA ‘facts’, and it is subjective judgment, I personally put it in the ‘unlikely’ category.
Jan Peter - 33/37 - some researchers consider this to be a match and some don't. If there is a shared common ancestor - it will be more than a few 100s of years ago.
This appears to be the closest to suggesting a match but is still a bit wide of the mark I feel.
Jackie M - The so-called "iffy" paper trail seems very clear to me. When I summarized the two sets of data that was before we had a paper record confirming Christian Thompson's birthdate of 2 Nov 1882 which is an exact match to Kristian's. Frank's father's note clearly shows Volden as the place of origin.
I agree, and this is at the heart of the issue. For the reasons I set out on page 40 I am personally convinced that Kristian Elias Danielson Stromme is my grandfather. As I have said previously, for me that was 95% ‘job done’. The DNA test route was to put the icing on the cake by adding the final 5% of the evidence. For what seem to me to be technical reasons that has not been possible.
Nancy B- You can match 67/67 markers without having a close ancestor. The Y-DNA test is good for giving clues to a birth father's surname, but not necessarily for pinpointing relationships.
I accept what you say Nancy as you are clearly far better versed in this whole subject than me. However, when we embarked upon this particular part of the exercise the whole purpose of the 37 marker Y-DNA test with FTDNA, so far as I was concerned, was to give a decent indication of the likelihood of Finn and Frank (me) being related. But you say that even perfect correlation at 67/67 doesn’t necessarily do that and that further stages are required by paying for further testing (autosomnal, raw data, GedMatch, etc). I feel that we’ve had a good bash at this and it hasn’t worked. Heyho. Thank you also Nancy for the referral to Richard Hill's Guide to DNA Testing which I have downloaded and read and is interesting.
I would recommend both upgrade to the Family Finder autosomal test at FTDNA. Autosomal DNA is a whole different animal.
Thanks, and I hear what you say, but for me, for the foreseeable future at least, I’m calling it a day, otherwise it seems you can potentially go on forever with ‘the answer’ just tantalisingly around the corner if only you commit to this that or the other test for more money. Fine, but not for me – you have to draw the line somewhere. I’ll leave you, Derek, to decide if you want to pursue that route.
Once again, very many thanks to everyone that has been so kind as to contribute to the latest part of this particular journey. And indeed look forward to further contributions……
Frank T |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2014 : 11:47:17
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Excellent summary Frank...
Where do we go from here..?
Back to the drawing board ..?
Come on you proper genealogists...suggestions please. |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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NancyB
Medium member
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2014 : 19:00:08
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I'm not responding as a "proper genealogist," but I think Frank has come to a correct conclusion. And while the Y-DNA doesn't pinpoint specific relationships (and isn't intended to), it does provide a strong indication that there is a paternal link, and that supports the other evidence.
Frank, I can certainly understand your not wanting to throw money away on one DNA test after another. The only other test that I think might be of interest is the Family Finder autosomal test. That runs $99, but there will likely be a sale during the upcoming holidays. That, to me, would be the icing on the cake. However, cake is good without icing! :-)
Congratulations on your hard work! |
NancyB |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2014 : 22:32:41
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| What is the source for the lastname of Tromm, or Thromme at it was written here? |
Edited by - jwiborg on 28/10/2014 22:33:23 |
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Christain Tromm
