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DDavis
Starting member
Canada
5 Posts |
 Posted - 06/09/2019 : 18:37:41
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I am looking for the sources to
1. Pål Kolbeinsson was born 1212 in Stadur,Reynistaourklaustur, Skagafjarddar, Iceland.
2. Torsten Pålsson was born about 1230
3. Pål Torstensson List was born about 1250
It is said that Pål Kolbeinsson died in 1282 in Vågå. This family took the name List in Norway. This family also have ties to Kleppe family through marriage.
Thanks |
Dreena Davis
Regina, SK
Canada |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2019 : 21:04:35
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Vågå district is in Oppland, Norway. The parish records are available back to about 1739 only.
There appear to be at least two different published works about the history of Vågå -
“Bygdebok for Vågå og Sel”, ? volumes by Ivar Teigum
“I gamle Daagaa : forteljingo og bydga-minne fraa Vaagaa”, by Ivar Kleiven. These are general history books and do not contain information about individuals and families.
When "It is said" is used I must wonder what source that came from. Perhaps they were in Iceland and actually meant Vågan district in Nordland, Norway.... with so little known about the source it is impossible to guess. |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9224 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2019 : 21:28:08
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There are a large number of discussion on the web about this family. This comment from one of the discussions tells you a lot about the variability of information on someone from 1212.
"Here is a listing of Pál's descendants commonly available on the WEB (Some reliable, some not so)."
Link
"My line has arrived at the family of Kolbeinn Arnórsson (b: c 1170 d: 1245-46)- Margret Sæmundsdóttir (b: c 1188 d: unknown)
They had two sons and one daughter:
Brandur Kolbeinsson (b: 1211 d: 19 Apr 1246)
Páll Kolbeinsson (b: c 1212 d: unknown)
Valgerður Kolbeinsdóttir (b: c 1214 d: unknown)
All born at:
Staður, Reynistaðurklaustur, Skagafjarðar, Iceland
In the Shorter Sagas of the Icelanders, Volume 1 By R. George Thomas, it is reported that prior to the Battle of Haugsness, Páll Kolbeinsson fell ill along with almost 30 other men who were preparing for battle.This is the last information I have about Páll Kolbeinsson in Iceland.Páll's brother Brandur was killed in the Battle of Haugsness.
In the line I am currently working on, there is a person named Páll Kolbeinsson, born in 1212, living at Harildstad in Nor-Fron, Oppland, Norway.
I have seen one site where the connection was made from Norway back to Iceland but there was no source information for this.Most site stop in Norway, not extending the tree into Iceland.
Is there a source citation which makes this connection?"
Link
From the same discussion, a comment about sources.
"Regarding Brandur, the brother of Páll, the primary source about his death is "Þórðar saga kakala", in the chapter on the battle of Hauganes.This is close to a contemporary source, and generally considered quite accurate."
And these comments on Pål.
"Páll is mentioned in Iceland later - he sold his farm at some point before 1259, and it is also said where he spent the 1254/1255 winter.Then he just seems to disappear from Icelandic records - there does not seem to be any mention of his heath or descendants in any records here.
So, maybe, after all, it is not too far-fetched that Páll might have been afraid for his life after the battle of Hauganes, where his brother and many relatives and friends were killed, and decided to flee the country, sell his farm and relocate to Norway.
Possible, but I cannot find any direct proof of this." |
Edited by - AntonH on 06/09/2019 21:49:20 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9224 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2019 : 22:15:21
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Discussions on the possible members of this family in Norway can be found in Norsk Slektshistorisk Forening, a genealogical norwegian society that publishes research articles by Norwegian historians and genealogists. In the Tree managed by Brynjulf Langballe there is a reference given for Torsten List, a possible member of this family tree, Birth: NST XIII s 279 and two for his son, Pål Torsteinsen List Birth: NST XIII s 280 and Family: NST XIII s 282.
Link
These journals can be found in some libraries. For example I have used the collection found at the Wilson Library, University of Minnesota.
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Edited by - AntonH on 06/09/2019 22:16:35 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9224 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2019 : 22:30:53
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I will list for you the various sources that are used to support in varying degrees the various Trees online. However you should also note that most of the discussions of this family line are full of disclaimers. For example from this Tree on Pål Torsteinson List and his father Torstein Pålsson Pålson List Born about 1295 in Vågå, Oppland, Norwaymap, Torstein is noted as the first known of this family. Thus giving no information or source on the connection between the Norwegian List family and a family from Iceland.
Here is a section from this Tree
"Note: #NI12474
Note NI12474Utdrag fra om List-ætten, i Engebret Hougen, "Av Haulde-ætt":
Torstein List er den første mann vi kjenner til i ætter. "List" er uten tvil et personlig tilnavn, som siden er gått over til sleksnavn.
Første gang Torstein List nevnes er i en markegangssak fra Berge i Follebu, hvor han var en av 12 dommere. Diplomet er datert 1333 (usikker tyding på eksakt dato). Torstein List står her som den tredje av dommerne, vi må da forutsette at han har vært en yngre mann, litt over 30 år gammel, kanskje henimot 40 år.
Det var sysselmannen, hr. Guttorm Eiriksons lensmann, Bård, som i årene mellom 1333 og 1344 levde på Berge i Follebu, men da Torstein Lists etterkommere eide gården, er det grunn til å regne med at denne har vært Bårds svigersønn, sønn er mindre sannsynlig. Et senere diplom må tydes derhen at Torstein List i sine senere år har levd på Berge. Han har dog neppe overlevet den store manndauden.
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På enkelte nettsteder, f.eks http://www.olelarsonsfolks.net/ er Pål Torsteinson oppgitt som far til Torstein List. Det er imidlertid ikke oppgitt noen kilde til dette. Den samme Pål Torsteinsen er forøvrig også oppgitt som far til Kolbein på Harildstad."
And a rough translation of same.
"Note: # NI12474
Note NI12474 Excerpt from the List family, in Engebret Hougen, "Of the Haulde family":
Torstein List is the first man we know in this family. "List" is without a doubt a personal first name, which has since been switched to family name.
The first time Torstein List is mentioned is in a landmark case from Berge in Follebu, where he was one of 12 judges. The diploma is dated 1333 (uncertain interpretation on exact date). Torstein List stands here as the third of the judges, we must then assume that he was a younger man, just over 30 years old, maybe up to 40 years.
It was the Governor, sir. Guttorm Eirikson's sheriff, Bård, who lived in the years between 1333 and 1344 on Berge in Follebu, but when Torstein Lists descendants owned the farm, there is reason to believe that ? had been Bard's son-in-law, or son is less likely. A later diploma seems to indicate that Torstein List lived in Berge in his later years. However, he not oakley to have survived the great man's death.
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On some websites, eg http://www.olelarsonsfolks.net/, Pål Torsteinson is listed as the father of Torstein List. However, no source is stated for this. The same Pål Torsteinsen is also stated as the father of Kolbein in Harildstad."
Link
For the son, the source given is
#8593; Slekter i Vågå og Lom, p. 77.
Pål Øystein Kvarberg, Slekter i Vågå og Lom : med forgreininger blant annet til Sel, Heidal og Skjåk. P.Ø. Kvarberg, 2000. Available to Norwegian IPs at Nasjonalbiblioteket
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Edited by - AntonH on 06/09/2019 22:52:42 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9224 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2019 : 23:06:02
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A question was posted on DIS Slekt Forum, seeking any new information on the List family since the publication of "I gamle Daagaa" av Ivar Kleiven (side 336), og i "Av Haulde-ætt" av Engebret Hougen. Giftes inn i Kleppe-slekta i Vågå (se Hougen og "Slekter i Vågå og Lom" av Kvarberg)
The Forum question
"Jeg prøver å se om det finnes noen gode bindeledd bakover fra:
Torstein List (2) ser ut til å være første 'bekreftede' person i slekta, født ca 1295.
Hans sønn, Pål (Torsteinson) List (3) (født ~1350) (Nevnes i både "I gamle Daagaa" av Ivar Kleiven (side 336), og i "Av Haulde-ætt" av Engebret Hougen. Giftes inn i Kleppe-slekta i Vågå (se Hougen og "Slekter i Vågå og Lom" av Kvarberg). "
The poster goes on to ask.
I see that on some genealogy pages a reference is made to "Pål Torsteinson (1)" as the father of the Torstein List, but without any reference to where the information comes from. From there, the ancestors are listed back to:
Pål Torsteinson (1) <- Tosten Pålsen (B) <- Pål Kolbeinsen (A) (from Staur in Iceland, his name / family is mentioned apparently in "Ættartølurbækur Jóns Espólíns ssslumanns" published in Iceland, but I do not know if there is anything in there that he moved to Norway).
There is only one answer to the post. Essentially says
"To my knowledge, there is not anything newer about the List family than Hougen has published."
And he closes with this comment which is worth giving some weight to.
"Internettsider utan kjeldehenvisningar og fantasifulle ættelinjer gjer du nok klokt i å ligge langt unna ja..."
Which I would translate as
"Internet sites without source references and imaginative pedigrees make you want to stay far away yes ."
DIS Norge
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9224 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2019 : 17:21:49
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For information on The List family from Vågå there are three sources used by managers of the online profiles of this family. None of the sources seem to show a reliable connection with any family from Iceland.
Engebret Hougen: «Av Haulde-ætt - Bondearistokrati i Gudbrandsdalen»
NST XIII (1951-52), side 278-79. Professsor Gerh. Schøning:
«Reise gjennom Gudbrandsdalen», side 178. Engebret Hougen: Ættesoge for Gudbrandsdalen, bind II, side 68.
A lot of information on the List family using one or more of these sources can be found at these websites.
Tore Nygaard Site
Roots Web
Geni.com |
Edited by - AntonH on 07/09/2019 17:39:44 |
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DDavis
Starting member
Canada
5 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2019 : 22:35:27
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Hi "It is said" is my term for information that I don't have enough sources for. This information came from a site which is no longer allowing people to ask questions and I am very skeptical. Since you need a Iceland SIN number to access their site, I was hoping someone here may be helpful.
quote:
Originally posted by Hopkins
Vågå district is in Oppland, Norway. The parish records are available back to about 1739 only,
There appear to be at least two different published works about the history of Vågå -
“Bygdebok for Vågå og Sel”, ? volumes by Ivar Teigum
“I gamle Daagaa : forteljingo og bydga-minne fraa Vaagaa”, by Ivar Kleiven. These are general history books and do not contain information about individuals and families.
When "It is said" is used I must wonder what source that came from. Perhaps they were in Iceland and actually meant Vågan district in Nordland, Norway.... with so little known about the source it is impossible to guess.
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Dreena Davis
Regina, SK
Canada |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9224 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2019 : 22:50:34
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So perhaps a wrap up of what I found.
There are websites for Kolbein Arnórsson, kaldaljós. Some of them contain sources for this person.
Heimildir[breyta] „Flugumýrarbrenna - Sjö alda minning. Mánudagsblaðið, 33. tbl. 1953“,
„Þórði gefnar upp sveitir ... Lesbók Morgunblaðsins, 1. október 1985“,
Some of the websites have a discussion on this person, also in Icelandic.
However in one of the websites Geni .com website he is given several children including Pål Kolbeinsson List. No source is provided for this son.
Geni.com
Basically in the large number of sites I looked at only one cobbles the Icelandic family together with the List family of Norway and this site does not give a source for that cobbling together.
This Geni.com site is different from the one I first posted above but does have some of the same managers.
In the end there is no source for cobbling together the person know as Pål Kolbeinson List from Vågå Norway with the family in Iceland. |
Edited by - AntonH on 08/09/2019 01:10:01 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
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The List family from Vågå
