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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
 Posted - 30/12/2013 : 00:31:55
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| Yes, David, we were rolling on the floor, laughing. In your reply to us I think I see a twinkle in your eye, too. |
Edited by - JaneC on 30/12/2013 02:24:11 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 30/12/2013 : 01:25:35
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| Ahem, I see the sister (aunt to Frank and Derek) Christine (listed in the Christian Thromme Tomson family tree) died in 1946. Her death record would be next one to get unless one of the other siblings died before her. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 30/12/2013 : 02:21:34
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1) Frank will weigh in on "Thromme" and other mysteries
2) Descendants can be canvassed
3) Kristian Elias is such a strong candidate that a DNA test may be warranted, though that is a personal decision so one hates to press the point.
4) Records of all types (birth, marriage, death, obit) of all the children can be sought and may yield new versions of Cristian's name and/or birth place, or more likely may yield the children's FULL names and thus might add more circumstantial evidence to the pile. Frank may already possess those records.
I'll write to you about the foregoing, Jackie. But not tonight. Bye for now.
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Edited by - JaneC on 30/12/2013 02:22:47 |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 30/12/2013 : 06:44:44
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Another snippet from cousin Frank: On his 'word' copy sent to me, above the type is a hand written pencil entry: Dad's-Dad..?
Search Results from Historical Records
1-1 of 1 results for Name: kristian Thomasen, Country:Norway, Batch Number:c420739
Number of results to show: 205075
Name Events Relationships Preview
Kristian Thomesen
Norway, Baptisms, 1634-1927
birth: 23 July 1882
christening: 27 August 1882 HALDEN, OSTFOLD, NORWAY
residence: 1882 Halden, Ostfold, Norway
father: Thomas Marinius Bernhard Thomesen
mother: Trine Amalie Harby
Name Kristian Thomesen
Gender Male
Event Date 27 Aug 1882
Event Place HALDEN, OSTFOLD, NORWAY
Birth Date 23 Jul 1882
Birthplace
Death Date
Name Note
Race
Father's Name Thomas Marinius Bernhard Thomesen
Father's Birthplace
Father's Age
Mother's Name Trine Amalie Harby
Mother's Birthplace
Mother's Age
Indexing Project (Batch) Number C42073-9
System Origin Norway-VR
GS Film number 125888
Reference ID 2:2DZWQX6 |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 30/12/2013 : 09:57:33
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David Yaw, who actually saw the Walden naming document, said that it was definately Walden not Halden.
In the 1910 Norwegian census each person is named and the information contains their birthdate. I searched each of those that were posted (supplied from familysearch records of baptisms by David Yaw's Canadian connection) and this was my finding on him posted on page, I think, 22: 19:
"KRISTIAN THOMESEN b Halden 1882-07-23 there is a Kristian Berg b Tistedalen on that date in the 1910 census. Tistedalen is now a neighborhood in Halden, originally started some 4 km from the center of Halden."
Actually, 2 other forumites searched for information about him. I'll grab the other entry as well and repost.
Jan posted this on 19:
"Regarding Halden:
The city was named Fredrikshald between 1665-1928. Thus; Fredrikshald would probably be the cityname anyone would use in records up until 1928... "
and Kåre posted this:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jungfigh
came up with the 6 following possibilities:-
Kristian Thomesen
Norway, Baptisms, 1634-1927
birth: 23 July 1882
christening: 27 August 1882 HALDEN, OSTFOLD, NORWAY
residence: 1882 Halden, Ostfold, Norway
father: Thomas Marinius Bernhard Thomesen
mother: Trine Amalie Harby
Best wishes
David.
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This Kristian Thomesen can be excluded.
He was married in Idd at Halden under the name Kristian Berg in 1910
Kåre"
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Edited by - jkmarler on 30/12/2013 10:07:33 |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 30/12/2013 : 10:54:40
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quote:
Originally posted by jkmarler
Ahem, I see the sister (aunt to Frank and Derek) Christine (listed in the Christian Thromme Tomson family tree) died in 1946. Her death record would be next one to get unless one of the other siblings died before her.
Although I'm not in possession of Aunt Chrissie's death certificate she was the first of Cristian & Maud's children to die.
She spent time in India with her husband John Venner.
On her return to England she had contracted tuberculosis which killed her.
I was only a young child then but can recall seeing her before her death when she was bed-bound. Although I can remember her funeral day. I didn't go. (No children allowed)
She is buried in Ramsgate cemetery, Kent. My Mother Daisy used to take me to her grave at least once a week to change flowers, etc. and pay our respects.
I remember Aunt Chrissie as a beautiful looking woman. |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 30/12/2013 : 14:39:47
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The reason to get your aunt Chrissie's death certificate is document collection is a necessary part of family history that you get the documents for any fact or study group you have so that you may examine them and glean facts and factoids on the person but also to legitimize or discredit information on each particular person.
The other practical purpose is that you might also gather information on other family members such as Cristian that might be contained in it. The research principle to be served here is that records created closest to the action dates of a mysterious person, like Cristian, are generally more likely to have information less influenced by the fading of memory, etc. |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 30/12/2013 : 17:14:00
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Thank-you Jackie.
I understand your reasoning...but...It doesn't seem to apply to Cristian. |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 30/12/2013 : 18:12:41
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Rules of evidence apply to every person you research including Cristian.
1. Facts relating to the stated purpose of a record are generally held to be more accurate than other items within that same record which are not related to the purpose. Suppose you have the data from a headstone for a person's birth date but it differs from their actual birth certificate or baptismal record. The birth certificate created for the purpose of recording the birth is what should be accepted first. The headstone birthdate you keep in memory since after all none of us are competent witnesses to our own birthdates but rely on our family to teach us.
2. Records created closest to the event are generally held to be more accurate representations of the event.
3. Records generated by the actual person they record are also generally thought to be more accurate representations.
Etcetera.
For instance the place name you have for Cristian's origin in Norway, "Lauden Vordner" That's your reality. But so far with the skill set we have on forum we haven't been able to generate anything definitive from it. It doesn't mean it's not valuable nor untrue, just that we haven't been able to take it anywhere. It represents at least 4 steps between the original source and you. 1.Your aunt probably heard something, 2.wrote what she heard down 3. You read her writing and 4. Now you remember 30+ years later what you read.
The Walden place name is a couple of steps closer to the original source--
Cristian. Cristian either reported his birthplace to a clerk or wrote his birthplace down for a clerk, the clerk typed it into record and that record was accessed when it came time for the deceased sailor report. One less generation of the record and very near the end of his life and very possibly the original information was collected in his lifetime. That's how it plays regards 2 & 3 above.
My personal suspicions about the name Lauden Vordner is that it may reflect a dialectical difference in the language of Cristian's place. Norway is a land of many dialects and sometimes speakers from other places in Norway cannot understand the dialect spoken elsewhere.
For instance, my ancestors came from Hallingdal a remote and up to 1909 fairly isolated place. Years ago I was searching for a fellow here in US and finally got a death certificate for him that gave him a birthplace as "Harringdar" which I couldn't understand because I was so sure he was from Hallingdal. Later on I heard from a Halling dialect expert that Ls are rolled into a R sound, so in Halling the place would be pronounced & could be heard as "Harringdar." The Yankee doctor wrote what he heard on the death certificate.
Another possibility about the name Lauden Vordner is that Cristian's home place had a "local" variant in name like a nickname. And so on.
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 30/12/2013 : 20:31:05
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I still thing that Lauden and Vordner is no Norwegian name, only exep. is a local pronunciation translated to English.
There are 29 documents and familytrees with VORDNER on Ancstry.com.uk.
Lauden was a familyname in Devon city, England, 1891 census.
Could it be a place in England etc. Christian was ref. to.
Reg. Hallingdal Jackie, a person from Halingdal is often called;
HALLING or HALLINGDØL
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 30/12/2013 21:19:48 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 30/12/2013 : 21:30:02
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I know that the origin of "Lauden Vordre" is not Norwegian and unknown.
I am 99 % sure that his real name was Christian Elias Strømme b. 1882 in Volda, son of Daniel Danielsen Strømme and Johanne Ananiasdr.
The last percent is the final evidence.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 30/12/2013 21:32:00 |
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David Yaw
Medium member
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 30/12/2013 : 22:14:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Kåarto
I still thing that Lauden and Vordner is no Norwegian name, only exep. is a local pronunciation translated to English.
There are 29 documents and familytrees with VORDNER on Ancstry.com.uk.
Lauden was a familyname in Devon city, England, 1891 census.
Could it be a place in England etc. Christian was ref. to.
Reg. Hallingdal Jackie, a person from Halingdal is often called;
HALLING or HALLINGDØL
Kåre
Kare, Just to reconfirm, the writing on the record I inspected in National Archives, Kew was crystal clear - Walden. Of course, picking up on the point that various contributors have made in this thread, that clear writing is only as good as the information the writer received - and we just don't know who provided details of Cristian's birthplace to the registrar who collated info on deaths at sea. Was it his next of kin, his employers ?? We just don't know.
Prompted by your comments, I did run a check this evening on Walden in an online gazeteer of British place names. There is indeed a hamlet or small village called Walden in Yorkshire near Aysgarth. See here
http://www.britishplacenames.co.uk/se0182-walden-north-yorkshire
Its not an obvious place for someone born there to follow a career at sea, but by no means every merchant seaman came from a coastal area !!!!
But running a check on a birth 1882 - 1884 of a C(h)ristian or a T(h)ompson yields no credible match for Derek's man. |
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FrankTompson
Starting member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
Posted - 31/12/2013 : 14:28:26
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Hi folks,
This is just a brief introductory message to say hello from me, Frank (Francis) Tompson, and, like Derek, Grandson of Cristian.
I am based in Bath, England.
Thank you so much to everyone that is involved in the treasure hunt and has devoted so much time to the cause. I started trying to track down information some years ago but got nowhere and gave up. It was only when Derek contacted me recently that I came upon this forum with its treasure trove of information. While there is still a bit of a way to go to find the remaining pieces of the jigsaw, the information uncovered thanks to the efforts of Derek and the many people engaged on the forum is a huge leap forward from where I had left my enquiries.
I will look through my documents but I think most of them have already been posted up or Derek is about to do so from a few things I have passed on. From hereon in I will follow the forum with great interest and might hopefully be able to contribute one or two small pieces of the jigsaw. My Sister Bobbie (Roberta Ricks) and nephew Frank (Francis Ricks) are also interested and might be able to make a contribution.
Best wishes and a happy new - and hopefully Cristian fully tracked down and identified - year to all!
Frank
www.franktompson.talktalk.net |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 31/12/2013 : 17:18:23
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Not sure why I brought in VORDNER for Walden, I must have mixed up with something else 
It can be diff. to keep the toungh straight with more than 400 posts 
What remains as I see it is the probate-register after Daniel Strømme where all his children should be mentioned from 1942.
Happy New year .
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 31/12/2013 17:23:06 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7765 Posts |
Posted - 31/12/2013 : 17:29:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Kåarto
Not sure why I brought in VORDNER for Walden, I must have mixed up with something else
It can be diff. to keep the toungh straight with more than 400 posts
Kåre
Perhaps you were rolling your Rs into Ls?
Interesting today I looked at the 1801 census fo Volda and here is the heading for that census at the Digitalarkivet:
"1801-telling for 1519 Wolden " (this was mentioned by Kåre far earlier in this topic!)
Living language is like a river, constantly changing, never the same, once.
Welcome Frank! Please feel free to contribute. We are curious to hear which records you might have looked at for Cristian through the years. Do you have documents on all Cristian's children --you know birth certs, death certs and the like? |
Edited by - jkmarler on 05/01/2014 19:29:16 |
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Christain Tromm
